DAK Tunic

[afrikasandman]

Unfront,

no one is saying that 3rd pattern tunics didn't make it to Afrika, they did and its a known fact but they did not go with DAK I see its rather obvious that you didn't read my post above. They did go but were not with the DAK soldiers, they went with replacement soldiers towards the end of the conflict down there. People really need to read a thread instead of just making comments Either way nice still shot of a SV288 soldier, rare footage to say the least. My favorite unit of that confiict. Matt

[Jørn Schmidt]

Thanks for all your comments in this thread,and sorry for the mix up with DAK and Tropical,I must admit,I did not know better.
Cheers
J.S

[NZMark]

Jorn,
No problem at all!
As for 3rd patterns in North Africa, please see this thread I started some time ago.
3rd Pattern tropical tunics were first produced in 1942 and saw service that year in North Africa. This is a dated, proven fact.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...+Pattern+Tunic
Regards,
Mark

[Unfront]

Unfront,

no one is saying that 3rd pattern tunics didn't make it to Afrika, they did and its a known fact but they did not go with DAK I see its rather obvious that you didn't read my post above. They did go but were not with the DAK soldiers, they went with replacement soldiers towards the end of the conflict down there. People really need to read a thread instead of just making comments Either way nice still shot of a SV288 soldier, rare footage to say the least. My favorite unit of that confiict. Matt

afrikasandman,

I read your post completely! Nowhere in my post did I even allude to the notion that 3rd patterns saw any service with the DAK. (Here we are on the same side of the issue and I am being berated!! )

I am well aware that 3rd patterns did not see service with the Afrikakorps. I am simply providing yet another example of the third pattern in service in Afrika. (Note that I even stated "(not DAK)" in my original posting!) I am very well aware the difference between DAK and Heeresgruppe Afrika.

You are correct in that no one (if any) here subscribes to the notion that 3rd patterns were never in Afrika. Which is a good thing. However, In the past (and even in the present) I have, from time to time, run into people that subscribed to that theory! (All the while, at the same time I occasionally see photos of 3rd patterns in collections where the tunic comes complete with Afrikakorps cuff title!!! .....so nichts!!!!)

[Scott A. Hess]

Nice tunic and trousers..great size and condition! Congrats

[afrikasandman]

afrikasandman,

I read your post completely! Nowhere in my post did I even allude to the notion that 3rd patterns saw any service with the DAK. (Here we are on the same side of the issue and I am being berated!! )

I am well aware that 3rd patterns did not see service with the Afrikakorps. I am simply providing yet another example of the third pattern in service in Afrika. (Note that I even stated "(not DAK)" in my original posting!) I am very well aware the difference between DAK and Heeresgruppe Afrika.

You are correct in that no one (if any) here subscribes to the notion that 3rd patterns were never in Afrika. Which is a good thing. However, In the past (and even in the present) I have, from time to time, run into people that subscribed to that theory! (All the while, at the same time I occasionally see photos of 3rd patterns in collections where the tunic comes complete with Afrikakorps cuff title!!! .....so nichts!!!!)

Sorry for jumpin at ya, I just feel like this is an issue that we go over and over and over on the forum and it just kinda rubs me the wrong way... Do love that SV288 tunic in that pic though Matt

[Tim O'Keefe]

A first patern tunic might well have only been worn in Greece, Russia or Italy, etc. So does that make it DAK ? Surely a uniform ( no matter what type ) is only DAK if it can be proved to have been worn in Africa. Calling all first patterns DAK is just as bad by that logic.


Nice tropical combo, BTW !

Agree with this statement.

This thread has become unwound abit. No one is claiming all 1st patterns are DAK items. No one is claiming 3rd patterns were not worn in Afrika. Mark's outstanding tunics display sun fading which could imply service in Afrika, but this extensive fading could also be from working at some farm in the USA as a POW.

The original DAK was the 5th Lt & 15 Pz Div thats it. Even the 90th Lt was not excepted as a DAK unit initially. The 164th either. The DAK was nearly destroyed at Alamein.
In Tunisia Some members of the 10th Pz did not consider themselves as part of the DAK, which in their minds was a defeated German Korps unlike themselves as they had been at the gates of Moscow. However some members post war did consider themselves as members of the DAK.

Eventually over the years every Jerry that served in Afrika could be labled a DAK vet, as with the Allies. Every Allied solder that served in Afrika could be labled a Desert Rat too. But here on the Forum we should stick to the facts....

What kills me is when i see a mint un-issued 3rd pattern with the AKCT

[MilitaryCollect]

Dak

Gentlemen,

Agree with Tim & SMP. DAK means it was there.

But where, when and which unit(s) still needs clarification.

C.

[afrikasandman]

Tim is very right on his statement. I know most of us tropical and DAK collectors really like to think that anything that can be traced to the early units is DAK but its not always so. It seems that many throw the 90th Light and the 164th and the 10th pz. into DAK when they clearly were not. They saw a lot of combat action there but in all technicality they are not true DAK units. I do love those 10th and 90th light items equally as much though Matt

[MilitaryCollect]

Dak

Hello,

I have found some interesting info.

"According to the German plan, DAK was to have two divisions: 5. Lei Div., due to arrive in mid-April, and 15. Pz. Div. expected by the end of May." Heimdal,
"Afrikakorps" p. 47 (ISBN: 2-84048-152-9).

Another source also reported that "[a]t his interview with von Brauchitisch (Rommel's commander), Rommel was told that the first elements of the light division were already on their way to Italy, and were expected to embark for Tripoli on or before 15 February. The 15th Panzer Division would follow a month later and the whole of the Afrika Korps ought to be in Africa by the middle of May." Lt. Col. A.J. Barker, "Afrikakorps" p. 10.

Perhaps then the DAK is limited to 5th Le. Div. & 15th Pzr. Div. troops in Afrika by the end of May, 1941?

Please note the red piping (artillery) and the unit markings on the bike (21st Pzr. - motorized artillery) - probably AR 155 (mot.)

C.

[Unfront]

I agree with Tim's statement as well - as in, over the years, the terma Afrikakorps has come to mean anyone or anything that saw service in Afrika. Though we all know that there is a difference between the true meaning of Afrikakorps and what evolved into Heeresgruppe Afrika.

Either way, Jørn, you have a sweet tunic!

[SMP]

As a collector - I would say anything that saw service in N. Africa could be called DAK, but that's just my opinion. I appreciate that others have different views, based on units and time frames.

[MilitaryCollect]

Hello,

George Forty wrote: "On 19 February Hitler issued a directive announcing that from that date onwards the German forces in Africa under Rommel would be known as the Deutches Afrikakorps (DAK). In addition, the directive went on to say that in order to reinforce 5 Leichte, a full Panzer division would be transferred to Tripolitania." George Forty, "Afrika Korps at War (1. The Road to Alexandria), p. 26.

C.

[vbergman1]

definition of "tropical"

I may be a bit late on joining this, but to add a fuel to the fire, to call these items "tropical" is also inaccurate. Here's the definition of the tropics:

all the land and water of the earth situated between the Tropic of Cancer at lat. 23<SUP itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="111">1</SUP>/<SUB itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="110">2</SUB>°N and the Tropic of Capricorn at lat. 23<SUP itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="108">1</SUP>/<SUB itxtHarvested="0" itxtNodeId="107">2</SUB>°S (Columbia Encyclopedia)

The vast majority of German troops never travelled further south than 23.5 degrees north: see map here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_map_torrid.svg

Looking at the map, I seriously doubt if ANY of Rommel's troops served in the true tropical zone.

Perhaps these uniform items should be called "temperate zone" or "hot weather" garments?

[Bond]

I may be a bit late on joining this, but to add a fuel to the fire, to call these items "tropical" is also inaccurate. Here's the definition of the tropics:


Looking at the map, I seriously doubt if ANY of Rommel's troops served in the true tropical zone.

Perhaps these uniform items should be called "temperate zone" or "hot weather" garments?

Hi,

Agree that very few, if any, German troops saw service in the tropics, but the use of the term tropical is convenient, though inaccurate. However, they were designed by the Tropical institute in Hamburg and were designed for use in the Tropics or any hot weather location.

The problem is, that units serving in Italy or Greece etc could have the same uniforms as those worn in Afrika, but they would not have been members of the DAK, so as you suggest another term is needed, and whilst tropical is not strictly correct, in terms of area of service, it is correct in the qualities that the uniforms posses. I have seen the term DAK/Med used, but this not include those units equipped with 'tropical' uniforms in the Southern areas of the Soviet union.

I have also seen the term 'Southern front' used, but this tends to evoke late war items, IMO, following the collapse in Afrika and is not used as an overall term for these items.


Regards,

Jerry