Pionier Stug wrap

[90th Light]

I post these pictures I have in my archive, sold as pionier portraits and signed 1944.
Luca

Seemingly these Pioneer wrap collar tabs are made out of shoulder boards so I suppose that is how the guys in those photos got those ones.

I had a think about this latest collector myth about the tabs on the wrap which started this thread being made post war from pioneer shoulder straps and was left with a big question, If such rare collar tabs are being reproduced from such a source as pioneer shoulder boards then why do we not see more of them for sale ? Do a search and show me any dealer at the moment who has even one set of Pioneer wrap tabs for sale. If it was that easy then surely we would be seeing such collars coming on the market quite often.

Recently Helmut Weitze had some red piped Stug/ Artillery wrap tabs for sale which were unissued examples from an ex-shop find still tied together in pairs, mint and unissued. The same collector myth about those also being made post war from shoulder straps is doing the rounds. The question in this regard is if Weitze is getting wrap collar tabs made up today then why does he not get some rarer ones like Pioneer and recon made up. Why just basic red ? I will tell you why, because he is not getting them made. They were purchased in tact from a "door knocker" who found them as left over stock made from before May 1945 and only recently coming to light.

The same situation applies to the Pioneer collar tabs on the wrap which started this thread. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to show that they are post war manufactured and if there is proof then lets see those who indulge in such rumours or collector myths put forward their reasoning/ findings as to why the tabs are nothing more than typical pre- May 45 examples.

With interest,

Chris

[derka]

2 comments about colar tabs piping :

- Chris, when you wrote :
"Seemingly these Pioneer wrap collar tabs are made out of shoulder boards so I suppose that is how the guys in those photos got those ones. ",
i wonder how you can identify this point with the 2 pics provided by Luca, wich are very interesting, but of low resolution, would you explain your thoughts ?

- anyway, i don't follow Mr McInnes hypothesis about colar tabs piping of Raymond's wrap made from previous shoulder's straps piping.
this method was undoubtly used during ww2, considering difficulties/shortage to get proper "rare" piping color for colar tabs, and i already saw this in hands.
but details of this transformation work are generaly clearly visilble, comparing with "normal" colar tab piping appliation.
this is not he case here imho.

are those colar tabs original, period applied on an original wrap itself ?
this is another debate.

derka

[90th Light]

2 comments about colar tabs piping :

- Chris, when you wrote :
"Seemingly these Pioneer wrap collar tabs are made out of shoulder boards so I suppose that is how the guys in those photos got those ones. ",
i wonder how you can identify this point with the 2 pics provided by Luca, wich are very interesting, but of low resolution, would you explain your thoughts ?

- anyway, i don't follow Mr McInnes hypothesis about colar tabs piping of Raymond's wrap made from previous shoulder's straps piping.
this method was undoubtly used during ww2, considering difficulties/shortage to get proper "rare" piping color for colar tabs, and i already saw this in hands.
but details of this transformation work are generaly clearly visilble, comparing with "normal" colar tab piping appliation.
this is not he case here imho.

are those colar tabs original, period applied on an original wrap itself ?
this is another debate.

derka

Hello derka,

I can not tell from a black and white photo if a collar tab is made post war from a shoulder board any more than another collector can tell if the collar tab on the wrap which Raymond started this thread is made post war.

Like you, I too agree that the tabs appear to be original period items and unless someone can present some evidence to the contrary or the sites where such made-up wrap tabs are sold then I put to all reading this that is what they are, pre-May 45 Pioneer wrap field grey tabs piped in black rayon piping with all materials and stitching correct for the time.

The only observation that I have about them is that the skulls may be reapplied because they match one of the types found in the "Stuttgart find" 2 or 3 three years ago with the mint "A1 to A4" general assault badges and sold off by Detlev Niemann as part of his weekly up-dates. May be the wrap was found with no skulls ? how would we know and the skulls are correct however for the period of both the tabs and the wrap. Then again according to accounts from German Panzerwaffe veterans, some units did not apply the skulls until training was complete hence why one does see skulls pinned through both the tab and the collar. A mark of graduation & qualification I suppose.

The question is exactly what you state, when were the tabs applied to the wrap ????? That is the question ?????

Chris

[Richard P]

The question is exactly what you state, when were the tabs applied to the wrap ????? That is the question ?????

Chris

Deja vu from post #40.

The big question is when were the tabs, boards, tag, etc applied? If everything is applied correctly using period threads, proper machines, adjusted properly, then it is very difficult to tell. The tab application thread does match well color wise with the thread used in the wrap construction, it is however not the same, and there is no way to tell how far apart construction and application are. The thread is easy to tell apart because one is right twist and one is left twist. Both are correct for the time, but clearly shows different spools of thread.

Richard

Chris and Derka,

This isn't aimed at either of you even though I quoted you Chris. I know you guys read these threads from start to finish, but there are many who do not and jump near the end and start asking questions that have been covered many times.

Oh well...back to the village to re-light my torch and chase poor Raymond around with his wrap.

Richard

[Raymond]

I brought the tunic to the Union show yesterday and showed it to several collectors and got only positive reviews. Among those were John Casino and Chris Varrichio and both feel the tunic is original and there is no evidence to insignia being reapplied or not being original to the tunic. John was saying he felt the tunic might have belonged to a member of a tank recovery unit because of the particular combination of insignia. I'll look through my panzer books and see if I can find that combination.
I did find in one of my books, don't remember which, an enlisted man with a signal blitz and a gun layers arm badge. So unusual combinations did happen.
Thanks again to everyone for their thoughts and input. This is a never ending learning experiance.

[Mike Davis]

Very interesting. Will you (and the wrap) be at The MAX by chance?

[Raymond]

Hi Mike, no I won't be able to make the MAX this year.

[Richard P]

Hi Mike, no I won't be able to make the MAX this year.

How about the next SOS?

Richard

[Raymond]

The SOS is several months away and wont know if I can make it untill it gets closer.