Pionier Stug wrap

[sonderverband]

My gut says original wrap that was "embellished" to be a rare pionier version. I would imagine he had a small, stripped wrap and thought.... hmmm... what can I make this up to be that would sell fast??

[Alex Ciavaglia]

I am just curious. When do you think those tabs and shoulder straps were made? Wouldn't the litzen have been applied to the tab before the tab was sewn to the wrap? Also, could you direct me to some photos of Panzer Pioniere wearing field gray wraps with either skulls or litzen?

I am all about rules, but good lord.......

Willy, what i try to say is that upon the collar, should be everything but the skulls in that date. It means: doppellitzen sewed on profiled tabs, profiled tabs with nothing else, doppellitzen without tabs or, at worse, no collar insigna! Everything but the skulls that were strictly and repeatedly forbidden (last on 30th January 1943) althought there have been rare exceptions or misinterpretations of the rules.
My opinion is for put on (good? i can't say with only frontal picture) collar tabs on a never issued collar tabs wrap.

[Zauberflöte]

Regardless the opinions of some experts in the field who have also responded in this thread – and whom I highly value for their judgment in general – I personally still would not be comfortable with this wrapper for the reasons already mentioned.
Both the discussed set-up of insignia that would make me very cautious to say at least (the name-tag is to me a give away, questioning all other Pioneer insignia at an instance), and the liner that IMO is not made of the correct silk-like both in color as material…The markings? not how I prefer to see it. The wool looks okay, but has this always been a wrapper..??

Basically this one razes from my point of few to many questions, is not the one-looker that makes you comfortable and therefore would always be a “brainer”.
For your sake Ray, of course I hope you have found a big score! Just my 2 cents.

[Glenn McInnes]

Both the discussed set-up of insignia that would make me very cautious to say at least (the name-tag is to me a give away, questioning all other Pioneer insignia at an instance), and the liner that IMO is not made of the correct silk-like both in color as material…The markings? not how I prefer to see it. The wool looks okay,

Certainly not one I would want to own either.





Glenn

[Richard P]

The tabs and boards and when they were attached is one thing, but I would love to see photos of fake wraps that are anything close to this in fabrication skill and materials. I have seen so many different lining materials I would really hesitate to call one incorrect from digital photos. An "in hand" call is another story. My 2 centavos (much less than 2 cents).

Richard

[Zauberflöte]

The tabs and boards and when they were attached is one thing, but I would love to see photos of fake wraps that are anything close to this in fabrication skill and materials. I have seen so many different lining materials I would really hesitate to call one incorrect from digital photos. An "in hand" call is another story. My 2 centavos (much less than 2 cents).

Richard

Indeed Richard, please don't let me be misunderstood... I'm a firm believer of final judgment when seen "in hand"! Perhaps indeed the photo’s don't do the wrapper justice and as we know it's been more then once that good items have had their skeptics or worse here on the WAF based solely on photo's…??

F

[90th Light]

My feeling on Panzer wraps........... 95% are..................... ???????

but just to add a bit from my own collecting over the years, I have only ever once picked tabs for a Pioneer wrap. They are a matched pair, field grey with black rayon piping and very nice matching aluminum skulls pined through them with the piping being joined at the bottom corner of the tab just like the tabs on the wrap which started this thread.

Veteran removed from the field grey wrap at the time before it was thrown away because he got sick in tired of carrying the bulky thing around with him waiting to come home.

Regulations or not there was certainly at least one wrap clad pioneer with skulls on the collar tabs of his field grey wrap before May 1945,

Chris

[John Pic]

Yes and we all know how easy it is to come across matching sets of minty rare insignias instantly to fabricate such pieces

[Luca Ongaro]

The tabs and boards and when they were attached is one thing, but I would love to see photos of fake wraps that are anything close to this in fabrication skill and materials.
Richard

I am with you Richard, the wrap itself is a late war textbook example IMHO, materials included.
Luca

[Luca Ongaro]

Certainly not one I would want to own either.





Glenn

So how do you consider this wrap
Luca

[B. N. Singer]

...Basically this one...is not the one-looker that makes you comfortable...

Of course not, from the pictures, Significant doubts could be entertained with this one.

B. N. Singer

[derka]

Of course not, from the pictures, Significant doubts could be entertained with this one.

B. N. Singer

Mr Singer, and Mr McInnes,
i know why you prefer "short" opinions, without giving too much details, i can understand that; but could you be more clear, at least for me ?
i mean, do you think the wrap and its insignias are original, but put together after may 1945 to enhance its value, wich is close to my actual thought about it,
or do you consider that the wrap and isignias applied on it are all fake ?
thanks by advance.
derka

[B. N. Singer]

Mr Singer, ...i know why you prefer "short" opinions, without giving too much details, i can understand that; but could you be more clear, at least for me ?...
thanks by advance.
derka

Thank you Sir for your acceptance of my style of posting briefly.

As has been mentioned, making a judgment from pictures can sometimes be difficult.

However, from the pictures offered, it is MHO, that at the Very least, the insignia (collar tabs, which is what matters most in this case) are not Original to the jacket and are likely not Original themselves. And possibly Much more might be of question with this piece.

Only an opinion and once again, thank you for your kind understanding.

B. N. Singer

[derka]

thank you for clarifying your opinion, Mr Singer.

so it would certainly be very interesting in the future if some waf members can have the oportunity of a close hand inspection of this wrap, and accept to give feed back about this scrutinization.

derka

[Glenn McInnes]

I don't really care for the basic wrapper in general,not a "one looker" IMO...Collar tabs could very well be and most likely are- ex Pioneer shoulder straps.







Glenn