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**Willi Z.** · 08-24-2010, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by JOHN JONES View Post

This guy never read the regs ..

I hate when that happens......

**Raymond** · 08-24-2010, 06:52 PM

Derka and Luca, I don't mind at all. I think it actually ties into how my tunic can actually exist during the war. Knowledge should never be stifled. Great photos. John, it looks like your guy didn't care what type of tabs he had, he was going to wear skulls come hell or high water.
Yeah Willi, especially enlisted men, we were just told what we could and couldn't do. Then did are best to get away with what we couldn't do

. I remember wearing my 'rip stop' cammie's well after the date when only 'woodland' was to be worn. My jacket was the early type with the slant pockets and dated 1969, if I remember correctly. My Capt. and staff NCO's would remind me I wasn't susposed to wear it any more and give me a dirty look once in awhile but that's it.
I wonder how common it is to find officers with 'incorrect' insignia like on this tunic?

**Willi Z.** · 08-24-2010, 10:08 PM

Raymond, I know EXACTLY where you are coming from. I had quite a few EMs and NCOs under my command over the years.

Some interesting photos I just found. Summer of '44 with black/ white twisted piping on field gray tabs.

Attached Files

**Richard P** · 08-25-2010, 01:33 AM

Gunter's wrap would definitely go down in flames on this forum with no provenance.

Richard

**derka** · 08-25-2010, 02:11 AM

some very cool pics !

i'm not completly convinced with those pics that Gunter's colar tabs have field backing, i would have say black as for a black wrap ; but maybe i'm wrong and other pics exist showing more clearly this point ?
anyway, regs are very far away...
derka

**BenVK** · 08-25-2010, 06:07 AM

Raymond, sorry for deflecting your thead!

It was for a couple of reasons though.

1. I'm not a prolific uniform collector so am just trying to learn.

2. It seems to me that for every theory about what should have been worn, there are always period photos of what was actualy worn that conflict with those theories. That goes for everything, not just feldgrau wraps. Ah! but Ben I hear you cry, a few photos of individuals breaking the rules does not reflect what the masses wore. Of course not but it does seem remarkably easy to turn up period photos on nearly any subject you like that prove the opposite to whatever collectors rule or actual period regulation which should apply.

If people choose to only collect items that adhere to strict rules and regs, that's fine but I think more care should be taken when evaluating items that don't adhere or that are not "textbook" because a lot of genuine items can be dismissed all too easily as fakes. Also, the fact that we have only digital images to go on seems to get forgotten in these kinds of situations as well when it's actualy even more paramount to study an "unusual" item in the flesh.

**90th Light** · 08-25-2010, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by Luca Ongaro View Post

Chris, can I ask you what is the reference?
This man could be one of those.
Luca

Hello Luca,

it was one of the old threads on this forum. I got some items from Nebelwerfer 56 brought back from Italy so I was searching using the word "Nebelwerfer" and found it after reading through several.

This veteran brought back stuff I have got is a mix of the correct dark colored piping and red piping so it looks like it did happen and hence my interest.

I will go back and see if I can find it and post a link,

Chris

**km-spain** · 08-25-2010, 06:31 AM

Originally posted by Raymond View Post

Does anyone have a tunic, any style, with this RB# ?

I have not seen this RBNr in any other tunic, and I don't know if this could help you in any way with this wrap, but I can tell you that code /1000/ is from a maker from Wien.

**90th Light** · 08-25-2010, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by BenVK View Post

Raymond, sorry for deflecting your thead!

It was for a couple of reasons though.

1. I'm not a prolific uniform collector so am just trying to learn.

2. It seems to me that for every theory about what should have been worn, there are always period photos of what was actualy worn that conflict with those theories. That goes for everything, not just feldgrau wraps. Ah! but Ben I hear you cry, a few photos of individuals breaking the rules does not reflect what the masses wore. Of course not but it does seem remarkably easy to turn up period photos on nearly any subject you like that prove the opposite to whatever collectors rule or actual period regulation which should apply.

If people choose to only collect items that adhere to strict rules and regs, that's fine but I think more care should be taken when evaluating items that don't adhere or that are not "textbook" because a lot of genuine items can be dismissed all too easily as fakes. Also, the fact that we have only digital images to go on seems to get forgotten in these kinds of situations as well when it's actualy even more paramount to study an "unusual" item in the flesh.

Music to my ears Ben and what I have been trying to say for a long time.

No sooner is a rule written down about what is text book than an exception to that rule will appear and challenge the rule.

In fact period variations has a huge on-going interest factor because you study every example, every photo, every book, every site and every thread about them. Bang for buck they can be hours of interesting study and learning. Sure there are excellent fakes out there but there is also unrecognised "real-deals" just waiting to be discovered and documented.

This must be the only form of serious collectiables where variations from the norm have little value and practically no interest. If one takes stamps or bank notes for examples then it is the variations from the norm where all the money is plus of course condition.

Another problem is that too much weight is placed on the opinions and collecting preferences of only a select few.

Always get more than one opinion I say and do not just settle for a flock mentality,

Chris

**90th Light** · 08-25-2010, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by derka View Post

well Chris, of course everything could happen...
but normaly if nebelwerfer personal wore red piping, then it is because rocket launchers they served belonged to an arty or armored arty unit (mostly Regiment level in this case, as this size enable a mix with guns, howitzers and rocket launchers).
otherwise, if these nebel crews were in an organic independant unit (Abteilung or + level for instance), they would have had bordorot piping.
i don't have heard of a "true" independant nebelwerfer unit of this type whose members wore red piping, but maybe someone would have other informations on that point (like a big shortage of proper insignias in last months of war) ?
a feldgrau feldjacke usualy implies its wearer served in an armored vehicle, and as far i know, Maultier half-tracks with nebelwerfer mounts were used only in independant smoke units : here again, feel free to correct me.
so my guess for this wrap with empty (now) red colar tabs is logicaly for a pzarty unit member.
but it is just my opinion.

sorry for this leaving of the initial wrap of this thread, Raymond.

derka

Many thanks derka and very interesting at a time when I am researching this,

Chris

**Raymond** · 08-25-2010, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by km-spain View Post

I have not seen this RBNr in any other tunic, and I don't know if this could help you in any way with this wrap, but I can tell you that code /1000/ is from a maker from Wien.

Thanks Eduardo, one more piece to the puzzle

.

Ben, no problem at all. I'm in the same boat. I'm trying to learn about uniforms and cloth in general but there are so many aspects to it. Each answered question generates more questions.

Willi, great photo. What book is it from?

**Luca Ongaro** · 08-25-2010, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by JOHN JONES View Post

This guy never read the regs ..

John.

Not a normal practice but I would say this man too never read the regs.
Luca

Attached Files

905c_1.jpg (15.8 KB, 425 views)

**Luca Ongaro** · 08-25-2010, 08:26 AM

I post these pictures I have in my archive, sold as pionier portraits and signed 1944.
Luca

Attached Files

**PANZERPIONIERE** · 08-25-2010, 10:54 AM

FYI, the FG wrap Gunter is wearing in the above pictures posted by Willi, was re-tailored into a suit post-war so he could have something to wear while working for the Americans.
Steve

**Richard P** · 08-25-2010, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by Luca Ongaro View Post

I post these pictures I have in my archive, sold as pionier portraits and signed 1944.
Luca

Luca,

How dare you show photos of something that doesn't exist!

Richard

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