Celleon discussion with closeups

[Norm F]

silver-grey celleon

Great closeups once again showing the structure of the Celleon as a flat cellophane winding around a core of yellow fibres.
I wonder if the term "Celleon" originated in Germany or later amongst post-war collectors. It has a German sound to it -- does anyone have access to some old manufacturer's catalogs that may list the term?
Phild asked:
"Most seem to associate the use of cellon with yellow KM and General officers insignia variations......but what does anyone know about cellon use for simulated silver or white metal insignia?"
Although most contemporary use of the term Celleon is regarding the yellow variety, on page 233 of Volume 1 on Angolia and Schlicht's "Die Kriegsmarine Uniforms and Traditions" there is a photo of 2 visor cap insignia sets side by side -- one described as "gold-colored Celleon" and the other, for administrative personnel, "embroidered silver-grey Celleon". Unfortunately I only have a B&W photocopy of this page.
I wonder if the Luftwaffe and other services with more silver insignia have examples of silver Celleon?
---Norm

[Johnny R]

I am not sure where Celleon came from but the original word for this material in German was "Cellophan" from the French "Cellophane". It is from the French words "cello," from cellulose and "Phane," from diaphane, which translates to clear or transparent.

[phild]

Great closeups once again showing the structure of the Celleon as a flat cellophane winding around a core of yellow fibres.
I wonder if the term "Celleon" originated in Germany or later amongst post-war collectors. It has a German sound to it -- does anyone have access to some old manufacturer's catalogs that may list the term?
Phild asked:
"Most seem to associate the use of cellon with yellow KM and General officers insignia variations......but what does anyone know about cellon use for simulated silver or white metal insignia?"
Although most contemporary use of the term Celleon is regarding the yellow variety, on page 233 of Volume 1 on Angolia and Schlicht's "Die Kriegsmarine Uniforms and Traditions" there is a photo of 2 visor cap insignia sets side by side -- one described as "gold-colored Celleon" and the other, for administrative personnel, "embroidered silver-grey Celleon". Unfortunately I only have a B&W photocopy of this page.
I wonder if the Luftwaffe and other services with more silver insignia have examples of silver Celleon?
---Norm

I think that I have seen period made silver cello tress....which if true would prove that it was used for both silver and for woven applications.

My next question is: Has anyone seen convincing cello used in post war fake insignia?

[Renaud]

Some more elements :

In The Military Advisor, volume #3, number #4, Bender publications. Article by J. Pittsenbargar ;

"Many synthetic fibers came into use before WW II. By 1927 Rayon had been developed in Germany and was in use in Europe and the United States. This was later folllowed by Dacron and Orlon. In 1936 Nylon was developed by DuPont in the U.S. and in germany where one brand name was Cellulon (celleon). Many fine wartime army general grade collar tabs, shoulder boards and breast eagles were made from this synthetic material as a replacement for gilt wire which quickly tarnished. In 1956-57 polyesters were introduced to the domestic marketplace."

I know perlon too. All these materials maybe quite the same thing, but with different patents ?

I would add that some Lw general schirmmützen have all celleon insignias : eagle, wreath, piping and chinstrap. One appears in french Militaria Magazine.

I don't know if it helps.

[Johnny R]

That article is partially correct.

Nylon was invented by Dupont in 1935.

Perlon is a version of Nylon and was "invented" at I.G. Farben in 1938.

Orlon and Dacron are both Dupont tradenames for two Polyester fabrics which were first produced for commercial products in the early 1950s

Rayon was invented in England in 1894 and called Viscose Rayon. In 1910 production started in the US and by 1924 it was refered to worldwide as just "Rayon".

[GFM]

A few years ago I had in my possession a Police Officers arm eagle embroidered in silver celleon. I will search the archives to see if I have a photo.

[phild]

That article is partially correct.

Nylon was invented by Dupont in 1935.

Perlon is a version of Nylon and was "invented" at I.G. Farben in 1938.

Orlon and Dacron are both Dupont tradenames for two Polyester fabrics which were first produced for commercial products in the early 1950s

Rayon was invented in England in 1894 and called Viscose Rayon. In 1910 production started in the US and by 1924 it was refered to worldwide as just "Rayon".

I have done a fair amount of pre internet research on the subject of synthetic fiber history...mostly back in the 1970s and I agree with your synopsis above....that is also what I discovered about all of those fibers.

Of course a burn test will result in the hard plastic like knot on Perlon/Nylon thread....not on rayon and polyester/Orlon/Dacron will burn into a hard knot was well...although you can tell a real smell and burn characteristic that is very different from Nylon.

Very often polyester is mixed with cotton in both thread and fabric....sometimes as much as 65% or more cotton...so you have to really know your stuff on a burn test of that mixture.

I think that most good fakes have been made out of the right materials for the last 20 years or so....but it is always worth checking. I have never discovered or been alerted to a fake due to the use of polyester, but I have confirmed a lot of otherwise detected fakes because they used it.

[Gary B]

I am not sure where Celleon came from but the original word for this material in German was "Cellophan" from the French "Cellophane". It is from the French words "cello," from cellulose and "Phane," from diaphane, which translates to clear or transparent.

Dear jhodgson,

I believe you are confusing terms here. He is not asking about cellophane, as in the clear mylar-like packaging material, he is referring to the yellow thread which was used as a replacement for bullion. Celleon and cellophane, as far as I know, do not have common word origins.

Gary B

[Johnny R]

Dear jhodgson,

I believe you are confusing terms here. He is not asking about cellophane, as in the clear mylar-like packaging material, he is referring to the yellow thread which was used as a replacement for bullion. Celleon and cellophane, as far as I know, do not have common word origins.

Gary B

Perhaps I did not explain it clearly enough.

They originally refered to the material as "Cellophan" in German. You can see use of the term on the evaluation "Probe" tag for the LW eagle that started the thread.

As I said, I do not know where the term Celleon came from but this (the base) material was originally refered to as Cellophan in German from the French Cellophane perhaps a misnomer but probably refering to the basic product before turning it to thread or coloring etc.

[phild]

Like probably most you, I have looked at a good bit of cello insignia under a high magnification lighted scope. It looks to me that it is made of a yarn like thread that is wrapped in the clear cello...which I would assume is basically they same as cellophane. In the extreme close up posted you can clearly see the edges of the cello that has been spun around the core thread. I would suspect that heat was involved in the manufacture as well or some other method to achieve adhesion between the thread cord and the cello wrapping.

Am I wrong here or do the the others understand it the same way?

[Gary B]

Perhaps I did not explain it clearly enough.

They originally refered to the material as "Cellophan" in German. You can see use of the term on the evaluation "Probe" tag for the LW eagle that started the thread.

As I said, I do not know where the term Celleon came from but this (the base) material was originally refered to as Cellophan in German from the French Cellophane perhaps a misnomer but probably refering to the basic product before turning it to thread or coloring etc.

Ok I see what you are referring to. Thx for the clarification.

Gary B

[Johnny R]

I always thought "Celleon" was a patented trade name etc. but I never could find a definite answer etc.

[Norm F]

Like probably most you, I have looked at a good bit of cello insignia under a high magnification lighted scope. It looks to me that it is made of a yarn like thread that is wrapped in the clear cello...which I would assume is basically they same as cellophane. In the extreme close up posted you can clearly see the edges of the cello that has been spun around the core thread. I would suspect that heat was involved in the manufacture as well or some other method to achieve adhesion between the thread cord and the cello wrapping.

Am I wrong here or do the the others understand it the same way?

Yes, I agree completely with that assessment of the struction of Celleon, and also that Celleon, Cullulon, Cellophan and cellophane are all terms derived from the same etymological root, referring to cellulose-derived, semi-synthetic pre-polyester products.
The silver-white form of Celleon seems to be mostly described in use in braided cords for chin straps, Portepees and shoulder straps. However, I think it was also used in some insignia although we still need posting of some good examples with closeups. The closest I could find so far was this blurry picture of an eagle supposedly using a combination of both golden and white Celleon, but doesn't look too convincing at that resolution.

[Johnny R]

Like probably most you, I have looked at a good bit of cello insignia under a high magnification lighted scope. It looks to me that it is made of a yarn like thread that is wrapped in the clear cello...which I would assume is basically they same as cellophane. In the extreme close up posted you can clearly see the edges of the cello that has been spun around the core thread. I would suspect that heat was involved in the manufacture as well or some other method to achieve adhesion between the thread cord and the cello wrapping.

Am I wrong here or do the the others understand it the same way?

There was an earlier thread where it was described as cellophaned rayon, ie cellophane coated rayon. That makes sense and fits with your model.

DJ Pool and Keifer Kahn know a lot about this stuff. Jim is busy worshiping his new Denim wrap today.

[Norm F]

previous threads on Rayon and Celleon

There was an earlier thread where it was described as cellophaned rayon, ie cellophane coated rayon. That makes sense and fits with your model.

DJ Pool and Keifer Kahn know a lot about this stuff. Jim is busy worshiping his new Denim wrap today.

Ah, I see the previous threads now:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=247321
and
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?p=136146
The last one has a font of info that was considered at one time for a permanent article by Ralph and Keifer on the subject -- guess everyone got too busy!
Well if could combine that info with some more closeups of the various uses of Celleon (both yellow and white) we'd have the definitive thread, especially if someone can find a German publication with the first use of the word "Celleon" for cellophaned rayon.
---Norm