Celleon discussion with closeups

[Laurence Strong]

A couple of examples. The first is dated 1942

[Laurence Strong]

An unfinished set of tabs, which would lead me to suspect late war. The close ups are 500% at 2400dpi I can bounce up the magnification if required

[GFM]

Since nobody has made note of Angolia's research on celleon in this thread, I'll add it for posterity. This is from "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe, Volume I";

To "eliminate the need of gold, to reduce purchase costs, and to increase the wearing periods," gold was substituted by a newly-developed material "Celleon" by an order (HV 38B, No. 258) dated 15 July, 1938. Celleon web, celleon lace and cord, etc., was made of a silver-plated web on a golden-yellow or white artificial silk base with a golden-colored textile-cellophane spinning. Bright Celleon had a base of silver-plated web, and matte Celleon had a white silk base.

This information is repeated in the Heer and Kriegsmarine volumes as well, under the sections on "Material of Insignia".

[Norm F]

Interesting detail!

Since nobody has made note of Angolia's research on celleon in this thread, I'll add it for posterity. This is from "Uniforms and Traditions of the Luftwaffe, Volume I";

To "eliminate the need of gold, to reduce purchase costs, and to increase the wearing periods," gold was substituted by a newly-developed material "Celleon" by an order (HV 38B, No. 258) dated 15 July, 1938. Celleon web, celleon lace and cord, etc., was made of a silver-plated web on a golden-yellow or white artificial silk base with a golden-colored textile-cellophane spinning. Bright Celleon had a base of silver-plated web, and matte Celleon had a white silk base.

This information is repeated in the Heer and Kriegsmarine volumes as well, under the sections on "Material of Insignia".

Interesting! That implies that the term "Celleon" would appear in the listing of that particular order (HV38B, No. 258) if we can find that primary source. I missed that part in Angolia's Kriegsmarine volumes (too bad they don't have a thorough index!).
I note the description "golden-colored textile-cellophane spinning". Certainly on my closeup observations the cellophane is clear colorless transparent, the color instead coming from the core within. The artificial silk referred to would certainly be Rayon, and we can infer that the color of the Celleon was determined by the use of golden-yellow versus white Rayon in the core while the lustre would be determined by this silver or white silk web intervening between the Rayon core and the cellophane winding. The cellophane itself probably also impart a degree of lustre.
Regards,
---Norm

[GFM]

I've noticed that even gold bullion Generals boards often have an inner core of yellow/gold to enhance the gold color. Some of them (I assume of later manufacture) have fewer gold bullion threads woven together and the inner core shows through. This is particularly evident if you put a loupe on the cords.

[Norm F]

wire bullion

I've noticed that even gold bullion Generals boards often have an inner core of yellow/gold to enhance the gold color. Some of them (I assume of later manufacture) have fewer gold bullion threads woven together and the inner core shows through. This is particularly evident if you put a loupe on the cords.

Yes, wire bullion is a whole other topic worthy of a separate thread, but briefly for here, there's an excellent website explaining all about the technical characteristics of wire bullion.
http://www.berlinembroidery.com/bullions.htm
It's basically lengths of hollow "slinky-like" windings of gold or silver-colored wire which are embroidered onto a backing with threads that are waxed with Beeswax and passed through the hollow cores. That's why from the back you see only threads - not the wire bullion - it's analogous to sewing on beads. Only thread, Celleon and solid wire threading is passed through the backing to appear on the reverse -- never wire bullion. People often get the wording wrong and say bullion wire instead of wire bullion; technically bullion wire would be the slender wire from which the bullion windings are made.
---Norm

extreme closeup of wire bullion wreath:

[Norm F]

Celleon vs. Cellon

Thought I'd update this thread with a new development in the discussion of the origins of "Celleon".
A discussion of Cap Talleys in the Kriegs Awards and Badges Forum brought up the term "Cellon" instead of "Celleon" when describing the thread used in later Cap Talleys.
In that thread Markus Bodeux writes:

Just for Norm about the correct spelling of Cellon or Celleon .....
This should be clear. Just an offer for technical use for isolation or electrical material and other use, for example protection of naval maps agains water ...
Weyers Taschenbuch der Kriegsflotten 1940.

Regards
Markus Bodeux

We have already seen the TR period term "Cellophan" to denote what many now call Celleon and now we have "Cellon" as well. This raises the possibility that "Celleon" is a collectors' term and not an original Third Reich period word at all. Once again it would be nice to know if there is an order in the Heeres Verordnungsblatt or the Marine Verordnungsblatt that specifies the official term that would have been used by the Wehrmacht.

Best regards,
---Norm

[phild]

Great thread (sorry for the pun!)! I would like to ask if anyone has seen reproductions/fakes made from real or real looking Celleon? That is cellophane wrapped thread they way the period celleon was made?

I was looking at the pinned thread by Fred Green and thinking about how for me at least the insignia has always been the most difficult aspect of uniform evaluation to get right. Maybe it is a mental block for me, but while I feel very confident in my ability to evaluate fabrics and sewing, insignia is and has always (for about 35 years) been very tough.

I am as good as the next guy at being able to look at 2 or 10 examples of the same type of insignia and being able to spot the differences, the problem is the "so what" factor. Every breast eagle (for example) from different makers and war periods is likely to show slight and sometimes not so slight differences. It is difficult for me to say that just being different means something is fake.

At any rate I realize that this opens a can of worms, but I would like to hear opinions or seen examples of fake Celleon.

[Norm F]

repro Cellon

Great thread (sorry for the pun!)! I would like to ask if anyone has seen reproductions/fakes made from real or real looking Celleon? That is cellophane wrapped thread they way the period celleon was made?

I was looking at the pinned thread by Fred Green and thinking about how for me at least the insignia has always been the most difficult aspect of uniform evaluation to get right. Maybe it is a mental block for me, but while I feel very confident in my ability to evaluate fabrics and sewing, insignia is and has always (for about 35 years) been very tough.

I am as good as the next guy at being able to look at 2 or 10 examples of the same type of insignia and being able to spot the differences, the problem is the "so what" factor. Every breast eagle (for example) from different makers and war periods is likely to show slight and sometimes not so slight differences. It is difficult for me to say that just being different means something is fake.

At any rate I realize that this opens a can of worms, but I would like to hear opinions or seen examples of fake Celleon.

Good question. Certainly fake Cellon/Celleon is out there. Here's one from a repro vendor's site which doesn't show high resolution detail for comparison, unfortunately.
Regards,
---Norm

[phild]

Mostly when we speak of celleon we are talking about hand embroidered insignia that is a version of metallic bullion counterparts. However, sometimes cellophane wrapped thread was also used in machine WOVEN insignia in the same way as metallic flatwire was. I think that KM cap talleys is a good example of this, but sometimes white thread (to emulate silver) was used for things like NCO tress and eagles, some SS cufftitles.

I'm curious if anyone has found actuall cellophane wraped threads used in repro machine woven (Bevo or Bevo like) insignia?

[dornier]

After to have seen this thread ,I have observed in my Erel cap´s chinstrap ,that this is the material called off white celleon,I have read in the description of a visor cap in sell.I thinked it was cotton .