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**theinglebaby23** · 11-19-2008, 06:26 PM

I sold guns (for national retailers) in college for a couple years. I get this all the time, but here's the real low-down on the 4473:

The FFL holder (shop that sells the firearm) must retain the document for somewhere between 2-5 years (I forgot which, but it does end at after a certain period). That's the only requirement, nothing is specified further. However, gun shops don't play around with these forms, so they'll usually keep them forever (mine did).

Now, say the new administration wanted to register all firearms, they COULD use the 4473 (which if you think about it would be an insane task in and of itself). But, keep in mind that there is no law forcing ANY PRIVATE firearms owner in this country to do background checks on who he sells
(or gifts) that same firearm (e.g. the "gun show" loophole, as Obama calls it).

For example: I was one of those dudes at the gun shows walking around with a rifle on my back (which I at one time had filled out a 4473 for) with a price tag on it. Some dude walked up and bought it. And with nothing but a handshake and an exchange of cash, the gun is gone (and completely legally).

Moral of the story: although the 4473 was filled out (and may be on file somewhere), and even if ATF had the time/resources to go through it all, it still wouldn't give them an accurate picture of who owns what firearm. So, if a national firearm registration were to happen, the only accurate way of registration would be if gun owners were to willingly state that they owned such and such firearm. That's it.

Firearm registration is unconstitutional... for now anyway.

Rich

**Johnnie** · 11-20-2008, 12:30 AM

I think Bob makes a good point that many Democrats come from pro-gun constituancies, and owe their jobs to them. There were also many Republicans who were not exactly gun friendly. I think it is simply important from now on for many people to start exercising their citizenship and continue to let their representatives know how they feel on all issues.
They need not forget that a number of house seats will be comming up for election in two years.

Johnnie

**roughshooter** · 11-20-2008, 02:44 AM

[quote=Matt Weber;2940568]
My advise to anyone who hasn't done so already, is to buy an "assault rifle". Also, stock up on ammo! Obama isn't dumb. He plans to ban ammo as well, and re-loading equiptment too. He knows banning ammo will be easier to do than banning guns. If he can't ban it, then he'll tax it so high that you won't be able to afford it! He doesn't care that it will cost thousands of jobs, and hurt the economy even more!

Dear American friends,

I agree whole heartedly with Matts comments above.

Financially these are most uncertain times. Also who knows what crackpots might be out there planning to do something to Americas' first black president, and think of the civil unrest that would be caused if an attempt was made on his life...

I have a copy of Shotgun News from February last year. On the front cover you could buy mail order Romanian semi-auto AK47's for $329.00 delivered to your FFL. I personally think these are great value and if I was a US citizen I'd sure as hell be buying one now, 10,000 rounds of ammo too. As it is I will have to make do with a Steyr AUG, and of course I can only own one in my second home in Austria, but at $3000 US (ouch) I still think you guys over there get better value for money when you can get a nice AK for $329 !!

Stay safe guys and buy a semi now before its too late.

Regards Craig.

**gew98** · 11-20-2008, 06:16 PM

Let's not be naive and think things cannot get worse in regards to the 2nd and gun control laws enacted by a bunch of left leaning dogs. To think they can't or won't attempt an end run on either is oblivious to history and the socialist maniacs soon to be in the white house.
To them owning a firearm of any type is a priveledge... one they will work earnestly to limit through hideous laws and to include taxation . When you can't legislate it out of existance you can sure as hell tax it to death. Coupled with strict dispostion and acquisition laws on top of what they will get banned spells bad karma.These political vermin have nothing but contempt for american history regarding firearms ownership and it's right. That they will work to make it meaningless is as sure a bet that the sun will come up tommorrow morning.

**Gene** · 11-20-2008, 06:58 PM

We have to be wary of people who specify just what guns they think are "okay" for people to own. Anti-gunners continue to use phrases like "hunters have nothing to worry about", implying their shotguns and bolt action rifles are acceptable, albeit reluctantly. These people have no concept of gun owners owning what they do because they want certain guns. They yammer on about "who needs an AR-15??" Well, I don't need one but I sure do want one. The President-elect is a committed anti-gunner, who had no qualms about holding gun makers accountable for the crimes of his Chicago constituents. He's against carrying concealed firearms and "assault weapons". Hopefully Saxby Chambliss and Norm Coleman get reelected so that there isn't a filibuster proof Senate for the anti-gun party. I also hope in 2010 the pro-gun party at least retains their seats and picks up a few for good measure. Gun rights are the most vulnerable, even though the Supreme Court ruled the 2nd Amendment allowed personal ownership of guns. They added a caveat that "reasonable restrictions" apply as well. To the anti-gun crowd, this means a particular gun is not reasonable, i.e. an "assault weapon", and should therefore be banned to protect us from ourselves. We will only have ourselves to blame if our rights are lost, but then again I voted for the right guy. . . .

**theinglebaby23** · 11-20-2008, 08:16 PM

What's the phrase? Only a tyrant fears his citizenry...

All I can say is that if it wasn't for citizens owning firearm models of their choice (many of which were old military weapons) to defend themselves in 1775, there wouldn't be a USA today.

Rich

**Johnny R** · 11-20-2008, 09:13 PM

It is very clear what he has said in the past regarding firearms issues. I state these not as a political post but as published facts. He wants to make semi-autos illegal and does not consider the 2nd amendment as referring to anything other than hunting weapons ie. Shotguns, .22s, and bolt action rifles.

I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban. B. Obama

http://www.ontheissues.org/domestic/...un_Control.htm

They also want to tax all ammo as much as 500% for handgun rounds, this is just one article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C1A965958260

We are going to have the promised "change" trust me.

**Bob Hritz** · 11-20-2008, 09:30 PM

Well, the American citizens spoke very clearly in throwing out the Republicans and perhaps that is the will of the majority. I don't know what the future will bring, but I am getting old anyway.

We live in interesting times.

Bob Hritz

**Johnny R** · 11-20-2008, 09:47 PM

When I was in Mexico last time I met a very wealthy older couple from Manhattan who said they did not give a crap about climate change because they will be dead by the time it gets bad. You are not old enough to avoid promised change unless you plan on dying 21 January, 2009. We will see, global warming seems appealing compared to what I think may be coming.

**R_Hessian** · 11-21-2008, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Well, the American citizens spoke very clearly in throwing out the Republicans and perhaps that is the will of the majority. I don't know what the future will bring, but I am getting old anyway.

We live in interesting times.

Bob Hritz

Bob,

I can get you a good deal on a plot if you need one anytime soon.

**Bob Hritz** · 11-21-2008, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by R_Hessian View Post

Bob,

I can get you a good deal on a plot if you need one anytime soon.

I have already made arrangements to be cremated. I figure I will have to get used to the heat, sooner or later.

Bob Hritz

**landsknechte** · 11-21-2008, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Thank George Bush; HE elected Barak Obama.

However, with all the problems facing President-elect Obama, I highly doubt he will have the time or energy to worry about guns in the next two years. Afther that, he will spend 2 years campaigning fo reelection and no gun laws pass during campaign season.

Pray that President-elect Obama will find the strength and courage to make wise choices and work for all the people. Pray that common sense dictates and that can devote himself to the problems at hand, which are far worse than firearms ownership.

Very true. McCain was on the ticket, but this election was really Obama vs. Bush.

All the handwringing in the world isn't going to make a damn bit of difference. Make your voice known to the politicians that represent you, and perhaps enough of them will abide by the will of the people to keep things from going down the path that you don't want them to go down. Politicians like to make a lot of noise when they're trying to get elected, and once they have been, the cold hard realities of politics and future reelections tend to keep them steering a more moderate path. Even out here in California, the state that so many people in the fly-over states love to mock as a socialist paradise, there haven't been any real efforts on the politicians to go on a gun grabbing romp.

Frankly, given the way that the Republicans managed the country in the wake of 9/11, I'm not convinced that they're the champions of civil liberties either...

**Johnny R** · 11-21-2008, 10:54 AM

The soon to be law policies on gun control have been on ice for a long time and are drafted fully ready to be put forward. They have been waiting for a chance to have a majority and someone in office who will ratify what they want and now they do. This is the philosophy if guns are made illegal the problem will be resolved which is right up there with if we make the fire department illegal there will be no more fires. This Nation suffers most from a terminal lack of commonsense which evolved from too many years of beer and hamburgers washed down with (poor) Sitcoms.

As terrible as it is IMO after he is in office they will wait until there is another incident like Virginia Tech or a bank robbery shoot out with AKs etc. etc. and then push the laws forward for a quick vote.

Bismark was quoted as saying there are two things ordinary people should never have to see being made: Sausage and Laws.

**Josh Beckett** · 11-24-2008, 12:51 PM

The older ban had banned svt-40s and the next one will too. It will also ban M1-carbines, G43s, johnsons, AVS semi autos, and many others.

I dont think another ban will come within the next four years(I am still on my guard though), as the dems have bigger fish to fry right now. If they do screw around with gun laws, they can kiss the house senate and whitehouse good bye.

**theinglebaby23** · 11-24-2008, 01:24 PM

I'll agree with you on that Josh. Whatever they squeeze in, they better do it in the first couple years...

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USA: Effects of reinstatement of the "assault weapons ban" on our collecting?

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