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Governmental x Diplomatic daggers - BIG CONFUSION?

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    #46
    Thanks, ebj. I look forward to reading further from your research. I do agree with your statement that "Since there are many more GO than Diplomat daggers, the right facing eagle head seems to make sense," though in the end that would be just an assumption, and what I think we need here are facts from period publication.

    Br. James

    Comment

      #47
      Originally posted by Ron Weinand View Post
      When von Ribbentrop's decorations and his personal trunk was obtained from the US Serviceman's relics at the end of the war, there was a photo made of the decorations and his dagger in the center. The photo shows a female military personnel sitting at the table. This photo has been published more than once.
      What many collectors may not know is that the veteran sold the trunk with all items to a fellow collector in the 1960s. When the trunk was unpacked it was discovered that von Ribbentrop's personal dagger was an Eickhorn GO, NOT A DIPLOMATIC that was expected. Ribbentrop was THE top diplomat, so I believe
      Eickhorn may have had the photo in the catalog, but I believe they never made one.



      Hello, YOU may think so but you are wrong! R. at this time has NOT been "THE top diplomat" but foreign minister and therefore, de jure, a GOV. OFFICIAL! Sorry, but you in no way do understand the german state system. It even more shows the importness of the crossguard eagle if (when he has been ambassador at london) has had a diplomatic dagger he has changed to the gov dagger when beeing minister.

      If you are aware of minute (even only color differences) differences between branches and daggers (eg. land- vs water custom, SAvsNSKK) perhaps you recognize the importance for germans of such small differences like eg. the direction of an eagle´s head.





      BUT your description about the certain looting it is VERY interesting and valuable to have documented that R., as foreign minister has been in the posession of a gov dagger for wear.

      Greetings, daggers.
      Last edited by daggers; 10-25-2018, 10:35 AM. Reason: addition.

      Comment

        #48
        Originally posted by daggers View Post
        Hello, YOU may think so but you are wrong! R. at this time has NOT been "THE top diplomat" but foreign minister and therefore, de jure, a GOV. OFFICIAL! Sorry, but you in no way do understand the german state system. It even more shows the importness of the crossguard eagle if (when he has been ambassador at london) has had a diplomatic dagger he has changed to the gov dagger when beeing minister.

        If you are aware of minute (even only color differences) differences between branches and daggers (eg. land- vs water custom, SAvsNSKK) perhaps you recognize the importance for germans of such small differences like eg. the direction of an eagle´s head.





        BUT your description about the certain looting it is VERY interesting and valuable to have documented that R., as foreign minister has been in the posession of a gov dagger for wear.

        Greetings, daggers.
        Ok wow I thought I rub people the wrong way.... Looting???
        You do not want to go down that road!!!!

        Question for the forum (EXPERTS) What dagger came 1st?? And what was the orientation of the Eagles??? And also what branch (dipo or Gov.) was the 1st dagger made for?? I would think a (Expert) who understands the German system would know this... P.S. it is known from original production records in archives.. Again not posted on internet.. And that is the answer to the (early) history of these daggers..
        Good luck.. Hint it is also hiding in plain sight..
        Last edited by damasco; 10-25-2018, 01:01 PM.

        Comment

          #49
          Originally posted by damasco View Post
          Ok wow I thought I rub people the wrong way.... Looting???
          You do not want to go down that road!!!!

          Question for the forum (EXPERTS) What dagger came 1st?? And what was the orientation of the Eagles??? And also what branch (dipo or Gov.) was the 1st dagger made for?? I would think a (Expert) who understands the German system would know this... P.S. it is known from original production records in archives.. Again not posted on internet.. And that is the answer to the (early) history of these daggers..
          Good luck.. Hint it is also hiding in plain sight..

          Hello, yes, looting. I have learned here at WAF (!), in another thread, what I did not know until then:
          (excerpt of a larger article) The taking of decorations, insignia of rank or objects of value either from prisoners of war......is a violation of international law. Stated by US War Department...
          Greetings, daggers.

          Comment

            #50
            Originally posted by daggers View Post
            Hello, yes, looting. I have learned here at WAF (!), in another thread, what I did not know until then:
            (excerpt of a larger article) The taking of decorations, insignia of rank or objects of value either from prisoners of war......is a violation of international law. Stated by US War Department...
            Greetings, daggers.
            I guess you must be right we will have to return it all..
            Is it legal to ship this all back to Germany?? Is it legal to public display these looted items in Germany ??
            SMALL PROBLEM.



            Found the answers to my loaded question on the daggers?
            You will not find the answers digitized on Google or in a small reference collection..
            Just trying to get people to think...
            Last edited by damasco; 10-25-2018, 03:10 PM.

            Comment

              #51
              In the same catalog of Eickorn appears the saber with the eagles looking at different sides for a Diplomat


              For me, the meaning of the eagles had a meaning ... Government official was an official who worked in the different Ministries of the Interior Government of Germany for that reason the Eagles "look inside" (on the left).

              The official of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is an official of the Government ( eagle of the knob of the dagger looking inland) whose work is carried out in relations with other countries outside Germany (the eagle looking to the outside or right in the guard of the dagger)

              This is why I believe that the correct version of the Diplomatic dagger is the one that has the eagles looking at opposite senses.

              Comment

                #52
                Originally posted by damasco View Post

                Question for the forum (EXPERTS) What dagger came 1st?? And what was the orientation of the Eagles??? And also what branch (dipo or Gov.) was the 1st dagger made for?? I would think a (Expert) who understands the German system would know this... P.S. it is known from original production records in archives.. Again not posted on internet.. And that is the answer to the (early) history of these daggers..
                Good luck.. Hint it is also hiding in plain sight..
                Sword is no problem.. As this came later..
                The key is the answer for question above.. Early history of Diplomat daggers.. before mid 1940

                Comment

                  #53
                  Originally posted by damasco View Post
                  Sword is no problem.. As this came later..
                  The key is the answer for question above.. Early history of Diplomat daggers.. before mid 1940
                  I pointed to the sword because this thread started because the user of this forum who started the thread pointed out that in the Eickorn catalog reference is made to the dagger with the eagle looking at the same side is for Diplomats and the one that looks On a different side is for government officials.

                  If in the same catalog reference is made to the diplomat's sword and a photograph of this sword appears with the eagles looking at opposite sides, it is clear that the problem with the daggers is a mistake of the manufacturer's own printing.

                  If the diplomat's dagger, according to the catalog, is what the eagles look at for the same site, the diplomat's sword should have shown the eagles looking at the same place as well.

                  Comment

                    #54
                    Jim Atwood

                    The new book by Ken Alford "JIM ATWOOD" has the photograph of all of Ribbentrop's medals and his silver GO dagger on the table with the WW2 female in the background that was referred to earlier in this thread. It gives a wonderful synopsis of his life and his involvement in the hobby. A great read by a great researcher. Its available at Amazon

                    Comment

                      #55


                      Comment

                        #56
                        Well, I took a time-out and reviewed all issues of Uniform-Markt 1935-1942 which I have in digital format. Very time consuming as there are more than 2300 pages. I have done other research over the years and know it is many times a thankless job!

                        1. IMO the Diplomat dagger faces right as viewed and the Beamten dagger left. I reviewed several examples of eagles illustrated and described on flags and the illustration and official description of the national eagle which faces left for state and right for party use. In some cases the eagle head is described as turned in a certain direction versus how it shows. There was obviously confusion about this in the uniform industry as it is explained twice in 1940.

                        FYI: a new brown uniform was described for Ostgebiete (Generalgouvernement Poland and Bohemia-Moravia) Beamten in 1941 patterned after the Ordensburgen uniform. Dagger, dagger hanger and portepee in gold-yellow.

                        A new brown uniform for RMBO Beamten was described in 1942. It is stated that the dagger was planned for release after the war. The uniform eagle was first shown on the breast then moved to the left upper arm a month later. Shoulder straps were originally shown but ordered removed at the same time.

                        Comment

                          #57
                          Originally posted by ebj View Post

                          FYI: a new brown uniform was described for Ostgebiete (Generalgouvernement Poland and Bohemia-Moravia) Beamten in 1941 patterned after the Ordensburgen uniform. Dagger, dagger hanger and portepee in gold-yellow.
                          .
                          Attached Files

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                            #58
                            Beautiful example, Serge!

                            I also located the description of the Fischereiaufsicht dagger referred to by Angolia, "In the Service of the Reich", p. 141: Beamten Dolch in schwarzer scheide treten. GO dagger in black scabbard!

                            Also IMO: RMBO officials seem to have chosen to wear silver Beamten or gold-yellow Ostgebiete daggers as they are seen in photos wearing those style daggers. The gold-yellow daggers were designed to go with brown uniforms. One also occasionally sees the first style uniforms with breast eagle and shoulder straps.

                            Not much happened in 1943 and 1944-45 other than the new style Wehrmacht uniform with short jacket and boots. Last issue was Berlin January 1945.

                            Comment

                              #59
                              what of the early history before mid 1940 ??
                              I also have this reference but answer is not in it..
                              Last edited by damasco; 11-11-2018, 10:02 PM.

                              Comment

                                #60
                                I found nothing prior to 1940 as these new uniforms were introduced at that time.

                                Comment

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