Governmental x Diplomatic daggers - BIG CONFUSION?

[damasco]

James,
could you share the article from Die Klinge where it is stated that direction of crossguard eagle depends on the manufacturer? If no, please advise issue number and year.

Best regards Den.

I never said it said that...
Regards: James

[Luko]

So no chance to see die Klinge magazine page with this subject nor any kind of period regulations you are talking about?

Sorry to say, but this is like ''one woman said ...'' = no evidence, just talking.


Lukas.

[ebj]

Die Klinge - May, 1940, p. 122, as presented on pp. 87-88 of "Collecting the Edged Weapons of the Third Reich, Volume II", 1976, LTC Thomas M. Johnson. This article illustrates and states the Diplomat sword crossguard eagle faces right, the dagger eagle faces left. This references the sword and dagger manufactured by Alcoso.

Note the footnote regarding the theory that the negatives in the Eickhorn Kundendienst catalog were inadvertently reversed.

For various reasons, neither Mr. Johnson nor Mr. Wittmann necessarily agrees with the conclusion of Mr. Angolia, or me, that the direction the eagle faces depends on the manufacturer. The reversal of the negatives in the Eickhorn catalog still persists.

I am a longtime collector and researcher and have always enjoyed pursuing the histories of the items in my collection. Just as with certain other TR collectibles, this may never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. But, digging into the history is, IMO, the fun part!

[damasco]

Bingo
Yes that is some of the information..Much more IS still out there about these daggers
I wish people would at least buy basic reference before they start demanding answers here..

[Notaguru]

James: I must have looked at over 100 photos of Ribbentrop yesterday. Only two showed him wearing a dagger but neither one was clear enough to see the direction the eagle was facing. In one of the "Booty" books there's a photo of a collection of many of medals and a dagger supposedly belonging to him but again not clear enough.

[fredswiss]

A photo of Ribbentrop wearing his daggeris shown in Tom Johnson’s book series entitled “German Daggers of World War II - A Photographic Reference (Vol. 3, p. 668). Under a strong magnifying glass the eagle’s head definitely appears to me to be facing to the viewer’s right (i.e. the opposite direction of the eagle’s head on the pommel). I took a photo of the photo he has in the book but it is too fuzzy to be of any use in this thread but a look at photo in the book is fairly clear when under magnification IMO.

[Br. James]

"I wish people would at least buy basic reference before they start demanding answers here.."

Yes, I suppose it would be good if all collectors and newbies to our hobby had amassed libraries that contained an agreed-upon list of reference material and became thoroughly familiar with those materials...but this is the real world and it doesn't work that way. The main function of this and similar Forums is educational; it gives new collectors and collectors who have not studied a particular field of this hobby the opportunity to help in avoiding purchasing supposed artifacts that may be forgeries. We all know that in most instances, time is crucial when presented with an object being sold -- you have very little time to decide whether to say "Yes" or "No," but either way your answer may cost you much money and you may never have another opportunity to add a similar piece to your collection. We've all said "Yes" to such opportunities which turned out to be opportunities to lose money, so these Forums are here to provide some degree of expertise to those without the long years of history in studying countless subjects in great detail.

Br. James

[ebj]

I appreciate this forum as, has been said before, it allows us to pose questions and share the results of our own study. As I said, I enjoy digging into the history of items in my collection. When I picked up a nice Alcoso "GO" dagger a while back I set out on this journey. I have done the same with NPEA graduation daggers and numbered SA daggers. As an old timer I have the advantage of having amassed a rather complete library of reference books in these and other areas I have pursued. I have contributed to several of those references over the years.

What I have presented here is not necessarily the end of the story on the Diplomatic and GO daggers. I chose to share it as the title of the thread caught my eye. I always look forward to similar postings regarding this and other TR items researched by other collectors.

[daggers]

So no chance to see die Klinge magazine page with this subject nor any kind of period regulations you are talking about?

Sorry to say, but this is like ''one woman said ...'' = no evidence, just talking.


Lukas.

@Luko, I would highly suggest, first do your homework yourself not only waiting that others do it for you before you give such comment.
As already said the mentioned article has been published in the net for several times. Do a search yourself in the net, get copies of "Die Klinge" and don´t try to force other well experienced collectors who wanted to help to do what you just want.
You can take the help offered to you or leave it, that are your honest options.

Greetings, daggers

[Bulldog]

"I wish people would at least buy basic reference before they start demanding answers here.."

Yes, I suppose it would be good if all collectors and newbies to our hobby had amassed libraries that contained an agreed-upon list of reference material and became thoroughly familiar with those materials...but this is the real world and it doesn't work that way. The main function of this and similar Forums is educational; it gives new collectors and collectors who have not studied a particular field of this hobby the opportunity to help in avoiding purchasing supposed artifacts that may be forgeries. We all know that in most instances, time is crucial when presented with an object being sold -- you have very little time to decide whether to say "Yes" or "No," but either way your answer may cost you much money and you may never have another opportunity to add a similar piece to your collection. We've all said "Yes" to such opportunities which turned out to be opportunities to lose money, so these Forums are here to provide some degree of expertise to those without the long years of history in studying countless subjects in great detail.

Br. James

Well said James.
Russ.

[ebj]

A photo of Ribbentrop wearing his daggeris shown in Tom Johnson’s book series entitled “German Daggers of World War II - A Photographic Reference (Vol. 3, p. 668). Under a strong magnifying glass the eagle’s head definitely appears to me to be facing to the viewer’s right (i.e. the opposite direction of the eagle’s head on the pommel). I took a photo of the photo he has in the book but it is too fuzzy to be of any use in this thread but a look at photo in the book is fairly clear when under magnification IMO.

Thanks! Photos clear and close enough to make out the direction the eagle head on a dagger in wear is facing are tough to find. Same with dagger hangers and colors of both. Some take the position that Ribbentrop's dagger was gold-colored based on a color photo of him taken in the RK.

I have seen photos of Generalgouvernement Ost officials wearing GO daggers suspended with what appear to be Heer-style hangers with oval buckles.

[daggers]

Thanks! Photos clear and close enough to make out the direction the eagle head on a dagger in wear is facing are tough to find. Same with dagger hangers and colors of both. Some take the position that Ribbentrop's dagger was gold-colored based on a color photo of him taken in the RK.

I have seen photos of Generalgouvernement Ost officials wearing GO daggers suspended with what appear to be Heer-style hangers with oval buckles.

ebj, there are a lot of things to consider. I have too photographs of gov officials wearing obviously army hangers. Either the proper gov hanger has not been available at the time of buying OR, most probably, the wearer did already have an army hanger because of his personal army officers rank (I do have such series of photographs, proofable!) and he did not want to spend more money on a (for him) nearly equal looking hanger set. We have to keep in mind that daggers and hangers have not been cheap even at these times.


Concerning Ribbentrop, I have heard from collectors that could see his dagger in detailed photographs (the prominent photographs after his medals and the dagger have been captured) that this has been a Gov(!) dagger. I would consider this right as R. has been foreign minister and therefore NO diplomat (even as head of them) but a Gov Official.


Greetings, daggers.

[ebj]

Thanks, Daggers. I always enjoy such discussions and exchanges of info regarding TR items of interest. That is what makes this "hobby" so fascinating. It has something for everyone, whether a novice collector or a more advanced one.

I don't have the reference fredswiss mentioned, I will have to look into that one. One more illustration worth considering is in "Swords of Hitler's Third Reich", Angolia, 1969, p. 272. It is an illustration from an Alcoso catalog showing their new Diplomat sword alongside a Diplomat dagger. It reflects the Die Klinge article previously mentioned and shows the sword eagle facing right and the dagger eagle facing left. The latter is a little tough to make out.

FYI I remember when all us novice dagger collectors excitedly welcomed the arrival of "The Daggers and Edged Weapons of Hitler's Germany", Atwood, 1965. Finally we had a reference book for all those pawn shop and vet bring-back daggers floating around! Little did we know at the time that it presented some reproductions, but at least we had a reference.

[fredswiss]

Von Ribbentrop did serve as the Ambassador to the Uk just prior to being appointed to Foriegn Minister so I beieve it’s very possible that he continued to wear a diplomat dagger while serving as FM. He was appointed to the ambassador position in 1936 and served in that role until appointed FM in 1938.

[daggers]

One more illustration worth considering is in "Swords of Hitler's Third Reich", Angolia, 1969, p. 272. It is an illustration from an Alcoso catalog showing their new Diplomat sword alongside a Diplomat dagger. It reflects the Die Klinge article previously mentioned and shows the sword eagle facing right and the dagger eagle facing left. The latter is a little tough to make out.

FYI I remember when all us novice dagger collectors excitedly welcomed the arrival of "The Daggers and Edged Weapons of Hitler's Germany", Atwood, 1965. Finally we had a reference book for all those pawn shop and vet bring-back daggers floating around! Little did we know at the time that it presented some reproductions, but at least we had a reference.

Hello ebj, the same illustration is pictured in TMJs Vol.II pg.87.


Yes I remember very well when on a Saturday I did run into town to get the single available exemplar of Atwood´s book from the local bookstore. At these old times a milestone, now nothing more than remembrance and collector´s history.
Greetings, daggers.