Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[inimicus]

thanks for this intervention, william. excellent points.

I do wonder, per my previous question, about ANY widely-accepted items today for which there are no period fotos or documents. I think maybe the dlv flyers' knife for example is not in 'die klinge? also there's the w-ss para smock - or has that been proved fake? and what about the green w-ss skull and eagle for camo caps?

surely there are plenty of 'unattributed but accepted' things?

[inimicus]

many thanks, john.


dw

There are two issues being discussed in this forum:

1) the existence and the validity of the so-called DJ knife and its variants, the one with insignia on scabbard and the one without. I do not intend to get into that one since I have no dogs in this race.

2) the validity and the time frame for the Eickhorn single oval maker marked HJ knife. Of the existence of such a knife, there is no doubt. It is a fact that the single oval maker mark used by Eickhorn is found on knives and daggers from the 1920's. The double oval maker mark, in its many variations, was introduced by Eickhorn sometime in 1933 according to my records. So, it is a certainty that the single oval mark was in used until then... when the changeover happened is beyond me, and it is possible that the single oval mark was in use well into 1933 as the changeover happened. So, Tom's claim for the very early mark is correct unless we can assume that the Nazis took over in 1933.

John

[Frogprince]

So, Tom's claim for the very early mark is correct unless we can assume that the Nazis took over in 1933.

John

"Federal elections were held in Germany on 5 March 1933. The Nazis registered a large increase in votes again emerging as the largest party by far, nevertheless they failed to obtain absolute majority. Thanks to the success in the poll, the party leader Adolf Hitler - appointed Chancellor since 30 January - was able to pass the Enabling Act on 23 March, which effectively gave him the power of a dictator." Fred

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...on,_March_1933

[Frogprince]

.................. they are, a) that knives are falsely advertised and sold as being of authentic, non-postwar unembellished, pre-45 manufacture, b) dealers know or SHOULD know this [which, please?], and c) barring absolutely ironclad proof of authenticity................

.................. I do wonder, per my previous question, about ANY widely-accepted items today for which there are no period fotos or documents. I think maybe the dlv flyers' knife for example is not in 'die klinge? also there's the w-ss para smock - or has that been proved fake? and what about the green w-ss skull and eagle for camo caps? surely there are plenty of 'unattributed but accepted' things?.............

David, You seem to be wanting to open a “door” (for lack of a better description) into things that may be, or have been widely accepted in the “marketplace”. Perhaps in “books for collectors” etc. etc. Citing some examples that have no connection to Third Reich era blades which is fine - but otherwise not much help (IMO) in the context of discussing them (blades).

So here is my very short list of just a couple of topics which are blades. Where anyone wanting one of them would be well advised IMO that the pedigree of the originator guarantees nothing. At the top of the forum you will see the ‘pinned’ Atwood/Müller “SS Prototype” thread (pinning would also be a good idea IMO for this thread to at least expose collectors to the controversy surrounding them). With fairly recently WAF seeing the “SA Birdshead” thread which was pinned, but not now, which is still available by doing a search. And there are some older threads where as time goes on and new photos are made available that does not help change earlier arguments for the better. But I don’t have the time now to find and post some links.

I also don’t really have a lot of time this week for the “DJ” knives. But my calendar is clear next week (so far) to take another look at the “DJ” knives: As I have a photo library of a number of them - “in their glory”. With misaligned diamonds (some grossly), fake markings, etc. And just for good measure I might even toss in some of the “Party Day” variants, and a fakers test etch. And it would not be complete of course without some of the “Olympic” knives with their “exemplary” workmanship. All of them using the “BDM” knife as the platform for the additions/modifications with especially some of the latest batches the most notable for being crudely manufactured. Regards, Fred

[inimicus]

I really appreciate the extra time & attention, fred.

actually, tho I like open doors, I don't mind them being slammed in my face (well, gently closed is preferred, according to my nose...); but 'til now it's a Q. of proving a negative isn't it?

anyhow, good or bad, real or tarted up postwar or outright faked, and bristling attitudes or not, I'm enjoying the heck outta' the sheer democracy of it all! so yes, please come back. yours is one of the voices I most welcome.

but to torture your original metaphor further, it's evidently not an 'open-and-shut' case, legal proofwise.

good point about keeping on 'point', but as to blades per se, is it true the dlv flyers knife isn't period-documented anywhere? re the bird's head dagg being sold for ... what? $45k on a cal. dealer's site, it's too bad the interesting w.a.f. thread was eventually removed. (disappearing bandwidth the cause?)

about atwood and the blades he started showing round in the mid-'60s and showcasing in his red cover book (ca. 1967), I always thought they looked pretty weird. still do. cautionary tales indeed abound, trying to residing comfortably alongside speculation and not quite managing it. best, dw

[BobI]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Boy, those dealers are all crooks and are well organized. They have very carefully planted DJ knives and Hunlein daggers in various places with no connection so they can be bought under the pretense they were "vet obtained". Perhaps they have a union so I can join and get affordable health care. Obama care will kill us all, almost literally as well as some of these wives tales")!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[inimicus]

good one, bob!

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Boy, those dealers are all crooks and are well organized. They have very carefully planted DJ knives and Hunlein daggers in various places with no connection so they can be bought under the pretense they were "vet obtained". Perhaps they have a union so I can join and get affordable health care. Obama care will kill us all, almost literally as well as some of these wives tales")!
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Garry M.]

Inimicus,

Do you not wonder in the slightest why the dealers involved on this thread have not challenged us, the detractors, to provide proof for what we are saying? We have mentioned the regulations etc all along so where is their challenge?

Does it not seem strange to you that they wouldn't try to blow us out of the water by showing that we are inventing stories with the sole aim of making them and these knives look stupid?

Do you really think that they are remaining aloof because our position is so laughable that it doesn't deserve a reply?

You own one of these knives so your position as Devil's Advocate on this thread is untenable. If you really want to know the truth about your knife you are going to have to ask questions which some will find uncomfortable. If you don't your thread will end up like every other thread which has attempted to explore this issue.

[stuart a.]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=606987



SAY NO MORE

[Mac 66]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=606987



SAY NO MORE

Mmmmm, wonder who bought it

Dealer maybe

[inimicus]

really doesn't matter but then most things don't do they

Mmmmm, wonder who bought it

Dealer maybe

[BobI]

Why would a dealer buy it when he could simply make one? Or simply place an order in with the "militaria Mafea Dealer Order Site"?
I am still waiting for proof they are fake and how so many of us have been deceived by dealers disguised as vets over the decades.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Garry M.]

I am still waiting for proof they are fake and how so many of us have been deceived by dealers disguised as vets over the decades.
Best Wishes,
Bob

Well, do please let us know when you have proof for your position that these knives are fine. In the meantime, as an interim measure, you might like to consider not selling any of these knives and recommend that no one else does either. You know, until you find the proof that the knives are authentic, period pieces produced for the DJ and the BdM? That would be fair when you consider that the evidence against the knives is so strong. Don't you think?

[BobI]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Well, since everyone I know who has collected since probably before you were born feels they are original the burden of proving they are fake is on you. I will make a note of the disbelief by the minority on my web site.
I will respond now only when you show proof, too many other 3rd recih fall into the same situation that are considered real. This is just like the die flawed RK.
Bob

[Garry M.]

Okey dokey bobb. What would you need to see to be convinced that sufficient doubt exists on the period existence of the 'DJ' and BDM' knives? Can you read German? Are you really interested?

I and others on this thread can show you regulation after regulation, period book after period book, photo after photo, RZM source literature, autobiographies, UM, post-war chronicles, veteran accounts (German veterans). I could go on. I've got a whole library full of this dull stuff and it never mentions your pretty little knives let alone connects them to the Hitler Youth movement.

However, we could save ourselves a lot of time if you could ask your friends to provide you with just ONE piece of verifiable evidence from the period showing that these knives are what you and they say they are. Not a tall order I wouldn't have thought for a man of your experience and with the MAX connections you have? Unless of course 'belief' is indeed all you have?

It's not enough.