Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[inimicus]

-'Do you think these DJ's were made by Voos as well, if they were a less produced item wouldn't the maker be proud to stamp the blade... M7/2 perhaps?'-

early knives didn't have have rzm marks. josh is this knife you show also suspect?

oh, also in place of leather blade buffers I've heard felt was used. cheers.

[josh105]

early knives didn't have have rzm marks. josh is this knife you show also suspect?

Yup, I thought this DJ knife suggested to be a late war knife... at least I think my memory read that in the thread - perhaps I need to go back and read...

As for the knife I posted below suspect of the originality I think there are many that question the Olympic knives... just wanted to point out how the style of knife is almost identical to the DJ one you posted... why I thought perhaps Voos made these as well - as I think he was the only maker of the OHJs

[inimicus]

THANKS. IT'S LIKE CHURCHILL'S DESCRIPTION OF RUSSIA:

'a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.'

[RussellM]

The key take out from this thread and the one I linked to is simple, if anyone else has read it.

Ron's statement regarding the authenticity of these knives has changed from a "belief" in 2009 to a "well known late war variation" as posted in this thread.

Ron, you need to provide the evidence that backs up your statement - simple as that. Something has come to light to cause you to make such a statement, so please, share it. If there is nothing, then admit it's un-subtantiated dealer hype.

It's dis-appointing to see these dealers all getting on the band-wagon and advertising and selling these as DJ-BDM knives, one dealer in particular for me anyway. However, they've all taken the money, so now they all need to perpetuate the myth to cover their own back-sides. And, the collectors who've bought these are desperate to "will" them to be authentic so when they sell, they can recover their outlay.

The little knives look great, and the marketing job done on these has obviously been successful. That doesn't make them authentic.

Regards

Russ

[inimicus]

thanks, russ. here's a pm I send to a (very well-known) non-believer. we'd been discussing the tiny # of these knives when by all a accounts there shd. be thousands just like the regular dj knife. your reax is welcome:


oh, ok. but there were pretty clearly no worries about the decades-long market-flooding with the fake/souvenir/camping knives. they still gull the lazy and bookless tyros, true believers and the idiocracy - doubtless making loads of dosh for the fakers and 'gee I didnt know that' dealers.

so, why the fakers' foreberarance here, dribbling a few out at a time, and not with the full-size 'youth/camp' knives? you'd think box-lots would've traded hands and the Greedy of this world haven't the patience I reckon to one-at-a-time them; but who knows...

plus, we all know while the 'many were just found in awarehouse!' dodge is used by fakers - often laffably - some legit batches of identicals turn up, i.e. the waffen-ss camp mittens in the '70s, the berlin german medal (EK?) horde found not that long ago, and so on. hardly unheard-of; tho I realize this sounds like grasping at straws!

thing I still donno is if there WERE small knives made pre-45 for ANY purpose? (albeit whore'd up with hj emblems, fake etches etc.)

and the beat goes on... dw

[Darin S.]

Not a knife collector but have followed this thread with interest. I agree if new evidence has come to the surface supporting the period use of these knives it should be shared with the community. I don't doubt the "vet obtained" stories, but on the other hand we've all seen questionable or just plain bad items obtained from vets. If the only evidence is that the knives were picked up from vets, that alone would not be enough to convince me personally. An interesting thread to watch anyway.

[inimicus]

thanks gefolg; love your schulterklappen.

[Ron Weinand]

RussellM: Just as your assessment of the knife is a little presumptive, it is well known that I am a long time Collector, not a full time dealer only. It amazes me that my postings of my collection over the years has evidently not been obvious to you.
Also, why is it that NUMEROUS examples of this knife, in all states of use and abuse, have been found directly from veterans since the war are not accepted?
One question: IF we don't believe in any items without printed proof, how is it the all the Deumer Factory Boards that exist directly from veterans are not questioned as postwar creations by some in the collecting community? Does this fit in with the "DJ Knife"? Do we not believe in the German Order Pin Back that is present on Deumer Boards?? The medals were left over stock, not reproductions in May of 1945, just as the small knives.

[inimicus]

thanks a mint, ron, for this extra input; much appreciated! dw

[BobI]

These knives are like the flawed S+L RK, they were unquestioned for decades until someone here said they were bad. Since this person was popular and had a lot of good information they were believed to be bad on his word for a couple of years, now they are real again.
These knives are real, I will have to check my notes but I do not think there is any evidence of the maker for them. There is another version of this knife by a known maker, Klaas. These examples are identical in dimensions but have iron hilts. Up until recently the only times these were questioned is when the insignia was added, if the insignia is present. The method of attachment is how we know which ones were period modified. Ron's description is accurate for the proper method of attachment.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[RussellM]

Hi Ron, thanks for coming back in on this. Yes, I know you are a collector and have viewed many of your items in the past. I've got your books as well as all the others. We have also corresponded over this particular type of knife in the past. As I have also done with LTC. (Ret) Johnson.

I just want to clean out a little of your reply that is not relevant first:

"One question: IF we don't believe in any items without printed proof, how is it the all the Deumer Factory Boards that exist directly from veterans are not questioned as postwar creations by some in the collecting community? Does this fit in with the "DJ Knife"? Do we not believe in the German Order Pin Back that is present on Deumer Boards??"

The paragraph above has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

Now, this part is relevant, and I would ask you directly to answer this:

"The medals were left over stock, not reproductions in May of 1945, just as the small knives."

What were the knives left over from? What was their function or purpose? I'm not interested in the medals or any other items - just this knife.

Please also answer the questions I am asking you, without offering a question in return as a deflection.

You state that this knife is a "well known late war variation".

Q1. Well known to whom?

Q2. What evidence has presented itself to you (the collector) that gives you the right to make such a statement?

Q3. The burden of proof lays with the people who make statements such as "well known late war variation". I invite you to provide this evidence. You made the statement, and collectors who've tossed large sums of money at these 'things' deserve to see the facts that have led you to put it up in writing here.

Thanks Ron, look forward to some straight answers.

Regards

Russ

[RussellM]

Up until recently the only times these were questioned is when the insignia was added, if the insignia is present. Bob

Hi Bob, long time no talk.

What you've said above is what I'm talking about, and in fact is what this whole thread is about. I don't deny the existence of the knife itself, just it's label, actual initial purpose, and adornment with a diamond.

Regards

Russ

[inimicus]

thanks for chiming in, bob - dw

These knives are like the flawed S+L RK, they were unquestioned for decades until someone here said they were bad. Since this person was popular and had a lot of good information they were believed to be bad on his word for a couple of years, now they are real again.
These knives are real, I will have to check my notes but I do not think there is any evidence of the maker for them. There is another version of this knife by a known maker, Klaas. These examples are identical in dimensions but have iron hilts. Up until recently the only times these were questioned is when the insignia was added, if the insignia is present. The method of attachment is how we know which ones were period modified. Ron's description is accurate for the proper method of attachment.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Ron Weinand]

Russ, this isn't court and I am not going to be on trial here. Get the period factory catalogs yourself (You need to look for a Klaas Hunting Knife war time catalog) , if it is that important to you. Its not to me as I have already made up my mind on these long ago, so have at it.
If they were in not in stock during the war, why would so many exist without an HJ diamond on the scabbard? Would they have made these postwar as a reproduction and let them out without the HJ raute? Where did they find the Stocko snaps if your belief is corret? Believe me, there are more plain, mint knives of this form around than those with a diamond. And yes, I have found the plain ones from veterans also.

[inimicus]

I note GDC's dave hohaus, a senior admin there and a collector (not a dealer, I believe?) appears t/b in the 'believer camp.' and the knife is clearly displayed on that site's identification gallery. I somehow doubt it wd. be there if considered fraudulent by most moderators or members.

incidentally, has the gentlemans militaria collector forum or war relics eu delved into this topic?