Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[inimicus]

Also please ron -

1) this is for sure the small knife, right? And 2) when do you reckon the emblem was added to the little scabbard? Thanks for hangin' in there! D

[Darin S.]

Regarding the photo, according to Wim Saris the round cap badge was indeed used well into 1934, giving way to the diamond in April of that year. That photo does not prove one thing or another about the introduction of the HJ dagger to me. Just my opinion. Read for yourself and decide. Here's the text of the post by Saris on World War Militaria forum and a link to the discussion.

"Here some additional information about if it actually and officially was named Traditionsabzeichen?
There is some confusion in booklets about this badge:
at the moment of the new HY-insignia (the diamond, neues Abzeichen), the round was named as Altes Abzeichen (RZM, 1934).
With an order from about April 1933 it was said literally: all HY units have to wear the diamond symbol, which only was allowed to be delivered through Hofstätter (Verordnungsblatt der Obersten SA-Führung Nr.12 from April 1,1933 or Verordnungsblatt der RJF Nr 5 from April 13, 1933). It was asked by the RJF to snitch when another concern offered or produced this badge.
Since summer 1933 the diamond form had to be worn as: beneath the leather button for the left breastpocket. So, it then was not a cap badge yet officially (note from August 10, 1933). One month later it was annnounced to be worn also with the visored cap (note from September 8, 1933 when this cap in the new form was introduced). With the entry of April 1, 1934 the diamond had to be worn by all boys from the HY (note May 1934).

With some plates the round badge was in about 1933/34 indeed named Traditionsabzeichen:
NSDAP, Aufbau und Abzeichen from 1933, here it was additionally noted that the badge only was allowed to be worn after one year of HY membership;
in Abzeichen und Dienstgrade der NSDAP from 1934 the insignia was described as Ehrenzeichen (altes HJ-Abzeichen). Additionally it was mentioned that membership for HY had to be a joining before June 30, 1932;
with a plate with all important and official NSDAP badges (amtliche Abzeichen, only to be obtained with a membership-permit) it was noted as das Traditionsabzeichen for the elder HY and BDM members, which joined before June 1, 1932.

As worn with headgear (known then and offered as Mützenabzeichen) or traditions-badge it practically always had the safety-pin, as in the earliest stage for the diamond this had prongs. Later it was common when the diamond was used with safety-pin also.
For a short while (a year or so) the round badge indeed may have intended to be the Traditionsabzeichen, but since June 28, 1934 the braid for the triangle became the official traditions insignia. The round one no longer may have been that, but was still allowed to be worn by those that were authorized for it.
June 30, 1934 (note from Lauterbachter, the staff-leader, in the Verordnungbslatt) it was announced that a special insignia would be introduced for the Old Guard (Alte Garde der HJ), known as Ehrenzeichen. It was possible to request for this special insignia (the diamond in gold). Since mid August 1934 this could be done."

Link to the thread.

http://worldwarmilitaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=669

[Garry M.]

Ron, the knife worn by the boy is not the type of knife under discussion here. Nor is it the type of knife being sold by Mr Wittmann as pre-1933 production.

We have discussed that boy's knife type on the HJ forum where you used the same photo in support of knives with the engraved handles/blades but I don't feel that the quality of the photo allows such a conclusion to be reached. Nevertheless, the photo does show that the knife is neither a 'DJ' knife nor a knife of the type being sold by Mr Wittman as pre-1933.

My apologies; I meant to say Bill Shea when mentioning the letter.

Edit: I missed it when looking at the photo just now but Wim's information plus other threads on the HJ forum concerning the tradition badge and the introduction of the diamond HJ membership badge must surely convince you that this photo is not proof of anything concerning the 'DJ' knife or indeed the notion that the standard HJ knife was around pre-1933.

[Ron Weinand]

This photo has nothing to do with the small "DJ" knife, it is to back up Wittmann's statement that knives did exist prior to 1933 take over and the trademark issue.
The knife is obviously larger than a standard HJ, let alone the "DJ" knife.
GaryM: still waiting for your source of my stated correspondence with BDM members on the knife?

[Garry M.]

As I said, in the post above yours, I meant Bill Shea.

No. Mr Wittman is saying that the specific knife he is selling there is of pre-1933 production. He makes a clear connection between his knife, HJ knives in general and that Eickhorn MM. His angle is that the early Eickhorn MM is proof that the HJ knife of this pattern was produced pre-1933. Why else would he mention the MM and why does the knife have such a huge price if he doesn't think it somehow special or rare?

[Ron Weinand]

Wittmann knows, just as I do, people collect by trademark and the early single oval Eickhorn is rare and desirable period, so it brings a premium.

[Garry M.]

I don't want to deviate too much from 'DJ and 'BDM' knives but you are saying then that his opening sentence is meant generally and that he is not implying that the knife is pre-1933? I wouldn't know but if the Eickhorn logo is 1920s then surely that would be spectacular news and indeed, he is presenting this news as spectacular. He clearly thinks that the logo is proof that HJ knives were produced during this period and that he has such a knife, namely the one he is selling there. But.... you, I and everyone else, less Mr Wittmann, knows that this pattern of HJ was NOT produced in the late 1920s. He needs to revise his description in my opinion and I'm sure that even you can see the merit in that.

Edit: I'm not trying to say that Mr Wittman doesn't know his knives but rather that his sales pitch is extremely misleading. If it were clear we would not have room for interpretation of the scale demonstrated in this thread.

[Garry M.]

This photo has nothing to do with the small "DJ" knife, it is to back up Wittmann's statement that knives did exist prior to 1933 take over and the trademark issue.
The knife is obviously larger than a standard HJ, let alone the "DJ" knife.
GaryM: still waiting for your source of my stated correspondence with BDM members on the knife?

Yes, I noticed that thanks. What I was trying to indicate was that we should return to the matter at hand instead of embarking on a tangent. Is that photo of the HJ boy dated by the way? You seem sure that it dates to pre-1933 but as was pointed out earlier the placement of the badge could put it into 1934.

So what has convinced you and other dealers that the 'DJ' knife is as you all describe it on your sites and as you have described it in the past.

What is your opinion of the 'BDM' knife and why do you think that they quietly disappeared from dealers' inventories?

Tell us about HJ knives with green and blue diamonds. Where is the proof for their period existence ?

Have you ever seen Mr Shea's letter? If so, did it convince you? Would you be convinced if I produced a letter from ex-BDM/JM members where they confirm that they did not carry any official knives? Or don't I have the gravitas required by you to be taken seriously?

Have you ever seen Mr Johnson's proof that the 'DJ' had a different knife? If so did it convince you? Would you be convinced if I produced a letter from ex-DJ members where they confirm that they did not carry a special 'DJ' knife? Or don't I have the gravitas required by you to be taken seriously?

Those last two are superfluous anyway because we can see from the period regulations and publications that there was no knife for the BDM and that no special knife was issue to the DJ.

I think that your accusation that we are spreading misinformation should be explored. Do you really know the answers to the above questions? Can you really say, hand on heart, that the knives you and others have sold in the past were as described?

[Garry M.]

cheers, fred.

we remain after all this in deep-murk mode. now, per previous, what might be most useful for the membership here and elsewhere is for the heavy-duty researchers amongst us to ferret out and EXPOSE the fakers.

granted, that'd be perhaps easier using the aforesaid 'zoom lenses' and capturing the 'artisans' at work than proving individual dealers are bent. (fair to say very few are.)

but then perhaps not....

no matter the Righteous Cause, making pictures of people for publication w/o permission can get you sued. as to the other, although truth is the classic legal defense to libel, would-be 'outers' obv. need to think long and hard about whether they have a) absolute ironclad proof of charlatanry,

and b) whether, even if so, they've the time and $ to devote to getting him/them (?) convicted of fraud in the first go-round. and of course not forgetting appeals, counter-suits etc.

bit of a slippery slope, unfortunately. but with passions inflamed and minus proof, maybe the only way to go. russ and garry, over to you!

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am simply pointing out that these knives have been sold in the past, are being sold now and that they were and still are described as 'DJ' knives (not to forget the 'BDM' knife of course). I simply want to know what makes the dealers so confident. If they can't show any proof then we must conclude that they were wrong. Whether these knives were a marketing ploy designed to deceive collectors is not the subject of the discussion.

I believe that Mr Wittman's description of the 'pre-1933' knife should be revised because the possibility exists that someone may think that they are buying something other than an early post-1933 knife.

[Frogprince]

My thanks to Ron for the early photo which is a nice one. But unfortunately IMO does nothing to help his argument as to what Tom Wittmann actually said. But it did end up bringing something else to the discussion, which is the work of Wilhelm Saris and some others with my thanks also to Gefolgschaft for posting the information and the link.

With the information in the link IMO showing the period mindset of the NSDAP, and its control of how and who could make party items and some of the period regulations which were in force even before Hitler and the NSDAP took control of Germany. Which is why some of the different multiple ‘believers’ in past discussions were forced (IMO) to invent a late (or mid) wartime scenario. To somehow try and get around the lack of factual information to support their arguments after the prewar one got blown out of the water. With (in the U.S. at least) the fallback position being the “vets” who were never around to be asked their unit or when and where or how they acquired the items they brought back. With Ron and myself once having a discussion about this. With the discussion turning to Solingen, having tracked down the unit that ended up in control of the city for a period. Which was one of the (old) arguments that was made by some of those participating.

BTW: I know what “late” war or “mid” war is to arms/combat weapons collectors (they are some of the other things that I collect). But just what is it for dagger collectors? 1945 is out of the question, as only a very small number of the combat bayonets were ever made for the Wehrmacht (bayonet production halted - with guns still being made). With the efforts/resources going to hold off the Allies and prepare Germany for an invasion. So is it 1942 when series production of civilian (dress) items was halted? 1943? Or 1944 - when (for example) 10% of the antiaircraft forces under Luftwaffe control in a district in southern Germany were Hitler Youth? A touch of reality. To be compared to the argument that those in control of the Hitler Youth made a notable effort during wartime to order a bunch of non-standard, non-RZM/NSDAP approved, camping knives. Was this supposed to be something that would let young HJ members sit around a campfire singing Kumbaya complete with the “DJ” knives on their belts??

And in spite of the fact that some of the “DJ” knives keep getting hauled around from show to show, becoming more aged/damaged with each show as they travel and are handled by prospective purchasers. (Or that still others get artificial aging treatments.) Or maybe even that some of them were actually used by the vets as camping or garden tools. Prior that is for the plain ones - to having someone change their “gender” from feminine to masculine. With what was said in 2007 by someone other than me, still intact IMO when the pieces of the puzzle are assembled: .................“buying directly from the veterans I have found over a dozen of these knives. What must be stated is that ALL were in super, unissued condition, so whether or not they were ever issued or sold in Germany to the HJ (I don't believe these would have been limited to the DJ) is another question. HOWEVER, I am totally convinced that they were indeed manufactured. When the diamond insignia was added to the small knife is another question, but definitely done in the period, eg. not post war ...................”. With the "definitely done in the period, eg. not post war" part being something that I did not agree with - but included to be faithful as to what was actually said in the discussion. Fred

http://worldwarmilitaria.com/forum/showthread.php?t=669

.

[Garry M.]

I think the point has been proven sufficiently on this thread. The dealers can't/won't answer the questions I and others posed above. They never can and as usual when when one of their number is noted to be selling something strange the ranks begin to shuffle together. It's crystal clear that the 'DJ' knives are not what the dealers will tell you and let's not even talk about the silly 'BDM' knife. The dealers don't know what either of those knives are/were but they must be worth money right??

The reluctance of Mr Weinand (and others) to admit that Mr Wittman's sales pitch for the HJ knife might be misleading is frankly staggering.

I could have posted some excerpts from period documentation in support of my argument but that isn't possible with my membership level here on WAF. Yes, WAF allows members to cheat by allowing the uploading of links to externally-hosted photos but I prefer not to do things that way.

Those interested in the HJ and its collectibles are welcome to join us over at hj-research.com any time.

[Mac 66]

This thread should be pinned imo

might stop collectors from buying one of these post war DJ knifes

[inimicus]

thanks also for that, garry.

however, the matter is not so simple as whether dealers are 'wrong.'

the prickly tone and tenor of this debate - 'proof' on either side notwithstanding - must lead readers to certain conclusions; conclusions I don't doubt you wish for us to reach. conclusions with implications.

they are, a) that knives are falsely advertised and sold as being of authentic, non-postwar unembellished, pre-45 manufacture, b) dealers know or SHOULD know this [which, please?], and c) barring absolutely ironclad proof of authenticity, top dealers like johnson and wittmann and bill shea are gulling the public.

the 'implications' I refer to have to do with dealers' reputations and impacts on the hobby. creating suspicions tends to poison the well. that sours collectors - and especially new, young enthusiasts on whom the pasttime relies to survive.

it sours them not just to these knives, but by extension to the dealers' goods in general. and to the hobby writ large.

additionally, of course, while creating doubt surely taints reputations and undermines good will, it can have ill effects on people's livelihoods. we're talking bottom lines, here.

so, no, while leading us in a particular direction you're not outright accusing johnson et al of fraud. I doubt that would be prudent.

or simple.


dw



dw

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am simply pointing out that these knives have been sold in the past, are being sold now and that they were and still are described as 'DJ' knives (not to forget the 'BDM' knife of course). I simply want to know what makes the dealers so confident. If they can't show any proof then we must conclude that they were wrong. Whether these knives were a marketing ploy designed to deceive collectors is not the subject of the discussion.

I believe that Mr Wittman's description of the 'pre-1933' knife should be revised because the possibility exists that someone may think that they are buying something other than an early post-1933 knife.

[wilhelm Saris]

I am no "dagger lover" and much is told since the sixties and even earlier, which never was stated. Neither with an actual document nor a photograph of use. It is my personal opinion that stories about vets in many occasions are dealer's inventions for a better selling of their stuff! To get more money out of the item!

In the booklet "Aufbau und Abzeichen der Hitler-Jugend", dated April 1940 (and mainly spread since 1941) page 90 says: HJ-Fahrtenmesser. The further text mentions:
Members from the HJ and DJ do wear the HJ-Fahrtenmesser, the allowance for wearing is when the Pfimpfenprobe was done. In no HJ regulation whatsoever a dagger for the DJ is being mentioned and of course not at all a knife or dagger for girls. The last would be against nature and rules to "arm females"!

There is no evidence even that such daggers were planned in early war. Such items were not mentioned in the "Amtliches Nachrichtenblatt" nor the "Reichsbefehl" anyway. There was no mention in the "Mitteilungsblatt der Reichszeugmeisterei" about a new entry (Neuzugang) for a DJ-dagger or knife. Not even until the end of 1942. The only thing which changed were the leather parts. They changed into a substitute material known as Supronband UG. Don't you think they would have mentioned in this periodical? It is a possibility they "existed" on a drawing table, but then it would have been decided as "auf Kriegsdauer zurückgestellt" (to be waited when the war was over). This is known for other items! Who knows some concern has produced them to get them introduced and exepted by the Reichsjugendführung. But if then aluminum or light weight metals were used is even more questionable!

BUT.....to end my post: until any of the collectors is able to show us such evidence it is my and other HJ interested persons opinion the stories about these knives are bogus, inventions from those that suck money from the collectors (not having enough knowledge). Who started it: the disreputable major James (Jim). P. Atwood? Do we really know what he put one over on a person?

[JohnZ]

There are two issues being discussed in this forum:

1) the existence and the validity of the so-called DJ knife and its variants, the one with insignia on scabbard and the one without. I do not intend to get into that one since I have no dogs in this race.

2) the validity and the time frame for the Eickhorn single oval maker marked HJ knife. Of the existence of such a knife, there is no doubt. It is a fact that the single oval maker mark used by Eickhorn is found on knives and daggers from the 1920's. The double oval maker mark, in its many variations, was introduced by Eickhorn sometime in 1933 according to my records. So, it is a certainty that the single oval mark was in used until then... when the changeover happened is beyond me, and it is possible that the single oval mark was in use well into 1933 as the changeover happened. So, Tom's claim for the very early mark is correct unless we can assume that the Nazis took over in 1933.

John