Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[Frogprince]

Red, I would like to see pictures of your knife(s) because it never hurts to have more data to draw from to better analyze them. So I will will be sending you a PM ASAP.

Russ, If you can't find your "RZM" marked knife images it's not an issue as I already have what I believe is a full set in amongst those I've collected. With the "RZM" itself not the only thing IMO that is of some interest.

My thanks to both, Fred

[BobI]

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Simple, since these were most likely field, depot, parent or whatever modified pieces I am sure there is a lot of diversity.
Russ,

On the RZM marking, my first impression would be it is a piece of crap. Does not make sense in the real world.
Best Wishes,
Bob
PS- Gary, I don't think it will help but I would be happy to post your pics for you, my email is rfimd2000@yahoo.com

[RussellM]

No problem Fred.

Bob, thanks for your comments on that - appreciated.

It does, however, beg the question, if these are legitimate, why would someone stamp 'RZM' on it?

It looks like all the others, so it's already authentic, right?

So you have someone trying to legitimise a piece that is already authentic?

And who else outside of the German collecting world would know what the RZM actually was?

More nails gents, more nails...

Regards

Russ

[Garry M.]

BobI: you (and others on your side of this debate) were clearly unwilling to explore the documentary evidence and you now seem unwilling to discuss the knives based on their physical appearance. You clearly believe them to be "real" but you haven't yet gone into any detail in support of that belief and I'm sure the reader would be very interested in hearing your analysis and not just ours. It's a fair proposition and will give the reader a full understanding of your position because at the moment you are coming across as vague; dare I say evasive.

[BobI]

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Well, in that case I think someone took an allegedly original knife and modified it to try and legitimize it. I have seen similar things done over the years.
Garry,
I do not understand what you are after, if I can answer your question I would be happy to do so. In the case of a piece that I do not feel was official there may not be an answer, but give me specifics and I will do my best.
Bob

[Frogprince]

Russ, Here is the image I believe you are speaking of showing the “RZM” straight on, and reversed (as well as inverted for contrast). Looking at what is inside the holes it appears to have a mangled interior. With no doubt in my mind that it was most likely caused by a drill bit (this is not the only example showing this). And as I think you know, the scabbard has a “BDM” type rivet. BTW: I don’t know the history of this particular knife prior to about five years ago when it got logged onto a different operating system. So this is just idle speculation on my part - but I’m wondering if this example might have been something to try and disprove the argument that the knives were not RZM approved? I don’t know that is the case here, and this is not an accusation or insinuation. But it is one of things that occurred to me when I pulled up the image for this thread.

Bob, I agree with the “diversity” part as to how the conversions were done when looking at some of the different examples. But your suggestions of who you think may have done the conversions goes from some kind of Hitler Youth equipment overhaul depots. To individual households spread out in Germany “doing their own thing” when it came to the assembling of the components. How would that work? And did they also convert other types of camping knives to an HJ-DJ badged type of knife in the (presumably) post-1942 time frame? With what I am getting at here being the logistics of how this was all supposed to come together. And (assuming that this is the case with these unattributed knives) why does it seem to be the only type of knife that was used? Was it to conceal a clandestine activity from the RZM, or higher level authorities?

Best regards to all, Fred

[Frogprince]

I’m getting a little bit ahead of myself. But there seems to be some thought in different circles that everything with a Third Reich style badge or insignia on it is a period artifact. Oftentimes seen with high prices because they are “scarce” or “rare”. Or with a “story” - to try and convince collectors to part with their money in exchange for the item.

With the example here being just one example of the aluminum hilted “BDM” style “Olympic” knives. With what I think are observable defects which are so obvious that they should not fool anyone. But if anyone has questions just PM me, and I can create and post an explanatory version (I had one but cannot as yet locate it). And I have more examples, but many are not what I consider good closeups.

My best to all, Fred

[Garry M.]

Garry,
I do not understand what you are after, if I can answer your question I would be happy to do so. In the case of a piece that I do not feel was official there may not be an answer, but give me specifics and I will do my best.
Bob

I don't know how to make my post easier to understand Bob but there was a lead-up to it in posts #118, #119 & #120 if that helps.

[BobI]

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Some of you bring up great examples and hypothesis, even though we do not agree. This type of conflict is good for the hobby, thanks!
As was mentioned earlier, I made a mistake in the technicalities of the english language. My background is based in science and medicine. So, I like to deal with what I know and not speculation. I will not speculate on information I do not have answers to.
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->Here are a couple of knives I have had around for a long time. One of them had the button at one time and is broke, you can see part of the pin. Both knives show use and age.
Thanks!
Bob

[BobI]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> Before the pictures were posted I was going to say perhaps there was a mistake in the location of the RZM mark. The one shown in the pictures looks extremely spurious to me, I am sure it was added by a collector/dealer.
This is a more accepted location, on the back of the HJ button.
Thanks again!
Bob

[Garry M.]

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[Frogprince]

Bob,
Thank you for the images. Which I can add to the data I've collected as it relates to these knives as a group. I probably won't get a chance to study them until sometime tonight. But I did notice that a piece of the runner(?) was sticking out of the hole of that one example. Is that what it looks like to you also?
Best regards, Fred

[BobI]

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On post #118, when I see my webmaster and modify my site I will make a note stating some of the collector beliefs on this knife. Since due to their construction I am certain they were not "issue" knives but more of a "private purchase" item I doubt you will find documentation on them.
Post #119 is mine so expand on what you want me to answer.
Post #120, again, what do you want me to say? I can only tell you what I know and have from experience. I will not fabricate information to make people happy.
Talk soon,
Bob
PS- Fred, not runner but part of the HJ button that was there at one time.

[Garry M.]

Garry,
On post #118, when I see my webmaster and modify my site I will make a note stating some of the collector beliefs on this knife. Since due to their construction I am certain they were not "issue" knives but more of a "private purchase" item I doubt you will find documentation on them.

I'm not looking for documentation which says that your knives are private purchase items Bob. I'm only interested in clearing up the misconception that the 'DJ' and 'BDM' knives shown on this thread and currently available on a number of dealers' sites existed during the period. If collectors are aware that they are not looking at an official item of Hitler Youth equipment they would, I suspect, be unwilling to pay 900US.

Post #120, again, what do you want me to say? I can only tell you what I know and have from experience. I will not fabricate information to make people happy.
Talk soon,
Bob

I didn't ask you to fabricate anything. I'm simply asking you to qualify your belief in these knives. I've clearly misunderstood you at some point because it seemed to me that you were defending the premise that the DJ and BDM were issued a special knife. I can see that you don't think that so my apologies for the misunderstanding.

[BobI]

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Cool, It would have been so much easier debating this over a cold beer! Written language can be difficult at times. SInce I speak another language when I see someone from Germany writing as well as you. It is hard to realize the distance and language differences we have.
"I think" we both now agree that these were not issue pieces but were probably private purchase. The ones that meet the criteria of construction/modification that Ron and I have outlined are most likely going to be of period construction. I am sure some crafty people have made some over the years but with experience and a keep eye these can probably be identified.
Glad "I think" we have come to agreement! I personally feel 900 is a bit much for one of these but then again, we saw one sell on this thread for considerably less.
Best Wishes,
Bob