Deutsches Jungvolk knife - real or fantasy?

[inimicus]

Last

[DR DOLCH]

Looks OK to me. I did not know they were controversial.I guess everything is controversial these days as it should be for good reason. My biggest concern is that it looks like it was made yesterday,maybe it was.

[inimicus]

thanks dolch you funnee man. ron says the few he's seen are near mint, unissued like this one. I think it will be available soon.feel free to pm me....

[Frogprince]

I'm sorry, but there is another school of thought that says that these were made up after the war for the GI's in Germany. Using aluminum hilts after the legitimate HJ-DJ knives had long since been changed over to zinc (aluminum being restricted as a war material for the military). With series civilian market production itself terminating in 1942 because of a lack of materials. And dwindling manpower as workers were drafted, even as the demands of the Wehrmacht for the war effort were increased. With (unlike the legitimate HJ-DJ knives) most only showing age from poor storage if not in new or near new condition. Still made today (or recently) with stag handles, etched blade "Olympic" versions etc. etc. for the "collector market". With no period documentation authorizing them or period in use photos. With the immediate postwar ones possibly using old stock or leftover parts from non-party related production. PS: There are (or were) a number of threads on various forums with the input of HJ specialists discussing them. FP

[RussellM]

Well known late war variation. I have found 3 directly from US Army veterans who returned home at the end of the war. This style knife was a standard camp knife the Solingen manufacturers utilized mid-war and converted to an HJ knife from existing stocks. The Stocko brand snap is also on the Bulgarian Youth Knife known to be of wartime origin, so also substantiates the pre-end-of-war existance.
Conversion is noted by the removal of the scabbard runners and then re-riveted runners post installation of the HJ Diamond. You can tell this by grinding of the rivet and the finish missing around the copper head of the rivet.
The brown felt washer is missing from this one and is of the same type of material seen on NPEA Student Dagger.

Sorry Ron, but well known to whom?

You obviously have some evidence that this is indeed a "well known late war variation". So, please, enlighten the rest of us with the evidence.

Regards

Russ

[RussellM]

David, it is a nice looking knife you've shown. If you want to read more about the debate over this 'variation', and you have some spare time, have a read of this thread. There will always be believers and non-believers, but to date, there is no evidence whatsoever that these are legitimate HJ/DJ knives.

http://www.hj-research.com/forum/f31...lk-knives-180/

Regards

Russ

[inimicus]

thanks all.

yes I've read some of the hammer-n-tong about these objects and been aware of the debate for some years (hence my starting the thread with '... they're controversial...)

but I don't recall the size difference being addressed tho maybe I missed it. I think it makes sense the younger dj boys would wear a smaller version of the hj 'messer; and anyhow the dj knife WITHOUT emblem is accepted, correct?

and if so, not a great leap to conjur a regular size emblem placed not on the scabbard versus the grips of the diminished-size hilt on this model.

another monkey wrench: the 'party day' and 'olympic' knives are also small like mine, often with alu hilts (yes?) and those were early not late as these 'dj' types apparently were. and at least some of those 'party/olympics' are also controversial from what I undestand.

was the same tooling, material sourcing etc. used with them as well as with the so-called dj knives? ron, please come back....

[inimicus]

OOPS - I'd meant:


'and if so, not a great leap to conjur a regular size emblem placed on the scabbard versus the grips of the diminished-size hilt on this model.'

sorry

[RussellM]

thanks all.


but I don't recall the size difference being addressed tho maybe I missed it. I think it makes sense the younger dj boys would wear a smaller version of the hj 'messer; and anyhow the dj knife WITHOUT emblem is accepted, correct?

....

David, the size difference is a logical and convenient dealer conclusion to place it in the hands of the smaller kids - small knife - small hands....

This completely defies the regulation which states that the Fahrtenmesser was for the HJ and the DJ, and is advertised as such in period publications and catalogues. I also have photographic evidence which backs this up showing the HJ knife with the cross-strap being presented to DJ boys. The pic is in the thread linked above, and was taken from a video on the Hitler Youth.

Regards

Russ

[Garry M.]

Hi inimicus,

The only 'accepted' knife is the 'Fahrtenmesser der Hitler-Jugend' (the standard HJ knife). It is the only knife mentioned in the period regulations and it is stated in those regulations that both Hitler Youth and Deutsches Jungvolk members wore it. They were not permitted (by those same period regulations) to wear any other type of knife and there is no evidence whatsoever that the so-called 'DJ knife' existed during the period or that it was worn by Deutsches Jungvolk members in place of the standard item as some dealers and sellers would have collectors believe.

It is logical to assume that a smaller knife would be worn by smaller boys but that assumption is not and never has been borne out by any evidence dating to the period. In any case, it was not of course the case that boys did not grow from age 10 to age 14 in Nazi Germany. Nor is it the case that all members of the DJ were aged between 10 and 14. Older DJ leaders would have looked a little silly I suspect with a toy-sized knife hanging from their belts.

No conclusive evidence for the period existence of these knives has surfaced or, in my opinion, ever will surface. It is often mentioned that a photo exists showing them being worn but this phantom has never surfaced. If I remember correctly, there has in the past been talk of a period source which would prove the existence of the 'DJ' knife but this too remains a phantom. We must conclude then that there is no evidence. Those who do not believe in the 'DJ' knife can however point to plenty of evidence to support their position.

Collectors will make their own minds up of course but I think it would be sensible for all who sell these knives to consider the evidence before making any pronouncements on the validity of their item description.

Edit: sorry for repeating some of what you said Russ. I was still writing when you posted.

______________________
Hitler Youth Forum

[Mac 66]

DJ Knifes for me are post war period put together knifes,

Dealers who sell this DJ Knife will always defend that they are genuine period knifes, Why? Money !!!

If there is solid proof they were ever used during the TR period comes to light some day i might change my mind about these post war DJs

Regards Mac 66.

[inimicus]

thanks fellows.

mac: if there is 'solid proof', you *might* change your mind?

garry: one of the discussion threads I saw was a long one on your excellent 'site. in answer to critics, I think the genial tom johnson noted there were a lot of non-documented yet widely (if not universally) accepted cases of IIId reich collectibles including daggers. don't remember examples - but maybe the long dlv dagger (?).

seems a valid point. but for sure many apostates wd. likely not wanna pay premium prices given the controversy. wd. appreciate if you can kindly post pix for us from your 'site from 10/09, p. 10, post #192 showing examples of small knives. many thanks.

bill shea a while back sold one of these disputed knives, and it might be said he knows a few things.
another believer joining johnson and weinand. anyone else? wittmann? paul hogle? but then all these men are dealers - which has inspired less than kind (tho so far not legally actionable) remarks about their integrity.

anyhow, fascinating topic, indeed. dw

[inimicus]

one thing's for certain, maybe the only thing: my knife gives every appearance of being wartime-period made. very 'german' and unquestionably the quality of details of any hj knife I've owned thru the years - from rivets and grip plate fitting to cross-grain to scabbard and leather to well-made and finished hilt.

here's something else to chew on, which gives a different complexion to the 'why don't we see more' argument: given the huge number & seemingly limitless supply of postwar g.i. souvenir knives and surplus store types (with fleur-de-lis etc. grip emblems) and outright fakes to the present day, why would fakers go to the very large expense of manufacturing special tooling to produce such obviously tiny quantities of this knife? this, I think, what what fiscal wonks call 'a false economy.'

maybe mr. mod can take a poll, something on the order of: a) real pre-45, b) outright fake, c) pre-45 made w/o scabbard emblem, but altered postwar to include one. this is almost as much fun as going to the dentist!

[josh105]

Agreed it looks much like the Olympic knives, but since they are also controversial I'm not sure how much of an argument that brings to the table. I think there will always be a split on these daggers until there is some period evidence - 1 photo, 1 brochure, etc.

Do you think these DJ's were made by Voos as well, if they were a less produced item wouldn't the maker be proud to stamp the blade... M7/2 perhaps?

0911ew20-3.jpg
Thanks Oakleaf!

[inimicus]

hi and thanks josh - don't know who you were were responding to; in any case I've no idea who did or is supposed to have made my knife. sure like to know, as I suspect we all would...

fred stephens pls. bring your in-wear foto to the table! and ron, addl. info would be much appreciated as well.