Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Jo Rivett]

IMO the restoration should have concentrated of making it more mainstream with known and illustrated samples. It should have been gold plated .....

A Pig dressed in Silk, is still a Pig.
No Cogwheel, i believe you need to read the last two pages of this thread Properly, and stop going round in circles, the Dagger and it`s relationship with the Third Reich era have been blown out of the water, the Period Factory photos have been traced back to James Atwood and are now fish food, the Industrialists Theory has been sunk as has everything else ever "claimed" about these daggers. Your attitude, especially towards the end of this thread and even now, reminds me of what a large majority of Germans still thought about the End Sieg in April 1945......

Your last point comes as no surprise to me, they even made a TV series about these kind of collectors once, it was called The Muppet Show.

[cogwheel]

Hey JF: Whats with this psycho babble. This is ridiculous. All I said since the beginning of this thread is that I am a collector who likes nice daggers. The emphasis here is on daggers not personalities.
It is just one of those things that from time to time purist historians get together and intensely argue about some obscure corner of the field as if it were the biggest thing in the world. I just take all that with a grain of salt, listen patiently and do whatever I like to do. That is how I remind myself that this is a just hobby and not a life-or-death struggle. And when someone wants to spend big bucks on a dagger he gets what he thinks he wants in his pursuit of happiness.
Oh, did Miss Piggy collect daggers? How 'bout that.

[Jo Rivett]

purist historians get together and intensely argue about some obscure corner of the field as if it were the biggest thing in the world.

$70,000.- for a restored Fantasy item, is, the biggest thing in the world well at least the biggest Thing in the Hobby last, and this week.
Thank-You for the compliment, i never saw myself as a Purist Historian, but i like the Ring that has to it.
Yes to the last part of your Post, but this must change. My interests are Personal and i dont expect you to understand it, i posted early on in this thread that i knew two people who took their own lives (and left family behind) because they were stitched up by Dealers with a reputation who sold them Fantasy and fake items. I know many more who have lost all interest and gone into Depression because of it too. So what? their own fault? well early on yes, as all they had to Read were books like Atwoods and the rest, Today though, we can all help each other a little by exposing these fantasy and fakes.
If you or anyone else thinks that the SA silver pelican is a Nice item, then that's up to you, i guess a collectible in it`s own right really, but the price tag seriously needs to be adjusted, as does the description and the "BS Story" it comes with.....and hopefully this thread will hope to do just that.

[David Guist]

The item is what it is to each collector.Although threads like this are important to our hobby.They can be harmfull as well. New and old collectors alike come to the forum to have fun and enjoy some thing they are interested in. If they come here and see a bunch of guys going after each othere they will simply walk away.I truely believe it is up to us to keep the hobby alive and fun for every one.Best regards.

[Frogprince]

At this stage in the discussion it should be more about the item, and any related items like the other “Birdshead” daggers that we know are out there, not the personalities. As has already been mentioned - all anyone has to do is read the thread to see who said what and when. Look at the physical evidence. And then make a decision as to the truth of the matter, and what makes more sense.

And the same rationale applies to personal taste. If somebody wants to buy something because he thinks it looks good for decorative purposes that’s their decision. And there are those who follow down that path. For example, there are guys who collect “SS unit marked” combat bayonets by the unit, paying more for a unit that has a well established combat history, or maybe a better than average etching. Sometimes they will pay a lot more for a mismatched “beater” condition bayonet with an etching, than a better quality legitimate TR era piece. While the bayonet parts might be from the TR era, the etchings are completely postwar fantasies. But that is the individual's choice as to what they want to do with their money. FP

[cogwheel]

I certainly agree. The collecting hobby should be an easygoing and individualized endeavor with the effect of personal enjoyment.
In one of Bob Hritz's postings he mentioned an SA high leader dagger assembled for him in the 60s from all the correct parts (apparently by Atwood's operation). If I had the choice between this one and an original in lesser condition I would, without hesitation, pick Bob Hritz's dagger. It is the beauty of the the design combined with the condition that attracted me to collecting TR daggers in the first place and I care less about documentation, personality histories or provenance in general. And I know of many collectors who feel the same as I do.
I think its fine when someone doubts the originality of a certain dagger, and I applaud Frederick Stephens for his efforts to educate. But prior to his input originality of the birdshead was not questioned by anyone. And although Mr. Stephen's research might have raised doubts in some it is not, and may never be a clearcut issue.
Thus, in all fairness, you can't make the seller out to be a charlatan as if he was trying to pass off a well known fake.

Considering the price, I seriously doubt that some naive newbee with deep pockets would be making his first purchase starting his collection. Any potential buyer would be an experienced collector who knows what he wants.

[Frogprince]

Cogwheel,

No offense, but you were on a roll until you came to this part.

............
Thus, in all fairness, you can't make the seller out to be a charlatan as if he was trying to pass off a well known fake.............

As I said earlier, if being offered for sale was one of the “established” daggers like the one in the book. Or maybe even the one that was sold to “Chip” Gambino (which has its own problems). Then perhaps a claim could be made that the seller(s) were only doing what others had done in the past .

But a silver “Birdshead” dagger (that seems to have had the fittings made by a wandering craftsman in the Mojave desert) is another matter. Where in the supposed documentation does it refer to it being made in silver? Was this the ‘lower grade' Industrialist's dagger for small factory owners who made smaller contributions? And is the bronze version for even smaller factory owners who made even smaller contributions??

It is what it is: A poor quality “wannabe” fake of a fake.

FP

[cogwheel]

Well, I agree on the 'silver' version, but for a different reason. Had I come across this dagger it would be gold by now. Not only because its looks better in gold, but it would have never raised as big a controversy.
As far a Chip Gambino's dagger is concerned, It has the long necked eagle in the pommel - like mine. However, it has a plain blade with the SA motto. There is no dedication.

[JoeW]

Well, I agree on the 'silver' version, but for a different reason. Had I come across this dagger it would be gold by now. Not only because its looks better in gold, but it would have never raised as big a controversy.
As far a Chip Gambino's dagger is concerned, It has the long necked eagle in the pommel - like mine. However, it has a plain blade with the SA motto. There is no dedication.

Mmm-mm! Pimp my dagger! Picking anything up from Reddick?

[Jo Rivett]

[LEFT]

and I applaud Frederick Stephens for his efforts to educate. But prior to his input originality of the birdshead was not questioned by anyone.

Post 340 Cogwheel, you really need to go back and read that, the page from TJs book, where he writes that A group of collectors share the Theory that the Birdshead is a Fantasy item. That was not writen last week, that was years ago, and like i have said now more than once, There are people, like me, who have always thought it was a fantasy dagger.(going on Bob Colemansn post, him as well, from 1965 !!!) This has nothing to do with Gottliebs Nickel Silver dagger, and is not a new Theory based on this thread.
If you mean just this particular Thread, then you are wrong also, many people questioned it`s originality before Mr Stephens joined in. If you study this thread, you will see how it evolved to what it did, with the right questions being asked at the right time, and recieving the right, or hoped for information/responses. (unfortunately not what everyone wanted, but still more than enough) Thats not always easy, but it worked here, and has sewn a major seed that is about to make Jacks Beanstalk look like spring onions... in winter.
Cogwheel, its clear that you are intent on this "its not a clear cut case, seller cant be blamed, we still dont know.." thats fine, when it comes to facts and history though, then what you or i "think" or would like to believe, is of no real importance. The facts always take First row seats.

Not only because its looks better in gold, but it would have never raised as big a controversy.

Not at all. The controversy started, when the seller decided
to list a well known Fantasy item for $70,000 dollars, and either sell or lend one to a friend of his in Germany to try and sell for a huge amount as well, at the same time.
I was more than willing to just discuss the quality, the lack of any proof, and (my second post on this thread) the Original factory photos-list- come-home-made-poor-attemp-at-creating proof. I expected that Gottlieb would back his item up on the "Factory photos" alone, which he indeed did in an earlier post of his. That alone would have been enough to debunk both daggers, no sane Human can honestly call that Album page Period Factory Proof..and then sleep well. I most certainly did not expect him to lead us round the bend with Fables and Mythology.
I am not trying to make the seller look like a Charletan at all, He did a perfect job of that himself.

[cogwheel]

FJ: If it is such a wellknown fact that the birdshead is a fantasy dagger, how come no one of those in the know ever wrote a book about this wellknown fact in an effort to educate the collecting community? I never knew that there was any doubt about its existence during the TR. But then I don't spend all my time looking for everyone's opinion on subjects that I'm not specifically interested in. But if you want to get out the message of your conclusions you have to choose a medium that is as easily accessable as the current text books. And I don't think for most collectors the birdshead is not important enough to be waiting for a Messiah to provide them with insights. But I wish you all the luck in the world.
Maybe in 10 years we can talk about how this thread finally died for lack of interest and nothing had changed.

[David Fettes]

Maybe in 10 years we can talk about how this thread finally died for lack of interest and nothing had changed.

IMO This thread is dying because certain dealers who own these daggers are refusing to defend them.

[JoeW]

Some people have a hard time dealing with research and hard facts presented on this forum. They view these contributors on the forums as trying to influence a hobby. Such comments as "I, personally, have a general disdain for folks who try to set themselves up as the 'guardians' and 'protectors' particularly in an easygoing hobby that doesn't need any such influences. IMO this hobby can get along just fine without that kind of a 'spiritual guidance', high handed as it may be." indicate their live and let live view of collecting. They are content in reading the same collector texts that often contain the rehashed printed word of previous guides.

This thread isn't dying or dead. It is a completed work that has been pinned and will be read by others.

[joshh]

IMO This thread is dying because certain dealers who own these daggers are refusing to defend them.

The only thing dying is their reputations.

[cogwheel]

JoeW: I think I remember you as the fearless crusader who would launch a campaign to drive all those folks who sell fake medals and badges out of business. That was 6 years ago.
Any progress on that mission or did it finally, like this thread, run out of steam?