Craig Gottlieb-SA Birdshead Dagger

[Hank C.]

Greetings Gentlemen - particularly Frogprince, and Dietrich Maerz,

I am just waiting to see if my colleague, Wags, can upload my photograph for me - ....edit...

What for? You're an association member. Why not just upload your photograph yourself? Or am I missing something?

best
Hank

[David Guist]

Kind of thinking the same thing? Just watching this thead.

[F. J. Stephens]

Image postings

Gentlemen - Mr. Cummings and Mr. Guist,

I apologise for my inability to post images - something I must be doing wrong at this end - so I have asked Wags to put up the photo for me (just one of the Atwood/Muller SS "prototypes" that they worked into collecting market) - simply to answer Cogwheel's request for examples of Atwood's fantasy pieces.

I have appointments today, so I will explain my belief and doubts about the SA "Birdbrain" daggers over the weekend. There has to be some original source documentation that can be referred to - if these things are claimed to be real. I have checked every copy of Die Klinge magazine from late 1933 through to October 1939 - and the piece does not feature in there anywhere. I will submit more comment in the next couple of days - perhaps those who claim that they are real will also submit their evidence to support their case.

Frederick J. Stephens

[Serge M.]

Posting image for Frederick.

[TxGauleiter]

I have no dog in this fight, but to me, simple "Vet testimony", whether its typed out, audio recorded, video recorded, and/or notarized is not sufficient enough for me to warrant or justify a purchase of this scale. Even if the man really is a vet and owned a dagger, this dagger could have found its way into his possession over the years. Is it possible a grandkid could have lost an original dagger and replaced one into the foot locker or duffel bag and the unsuspecting vet could have pulled out the replacement, unaware that this is not his original dagger? (many vets dont study their war trophies, they just remember bringing them home.).. Or, is it possible the original dagger he brought back couldve been lost or sold, and a remorseful vet wanted to replace it and so bought one at a flea market or gun show, believing thru a foggy memory that this is exactly like his old one? There are a million possible scenarios, the point is, is that just because a vet records a statement about bringing a piece home, that does not in and of itself make it 100% legit, beyond reasonable doubt.

...a living veteran who the owner of a dagger can speak to, is worth a thousand "vet stories." Those with extensive experience buying direct from vets, like Ron Weinand, will attest to this.

Do you know how many stories Ive heard that a railroad eagle was taken "directly off of Hitlers personal train" or that a simple Army dagger was "Hitler's personal dagger"? I wonder how many "Hitler's actual luger" there are in cabinets across the US?

Anyone here with any experience pulling stuff out of the woodwork will tell you the crazy stories that go with it. I am sure any one of those people who swear to you that their item came from Adolf himself would be willing to record that testimony in front of a camera, for they TRULY believe what theyre saying, but that doesnt make it so.

And Rons statement about this being the 1st dagger produced and a gift for industrialists for financial support:

They were the first Nazi Dagger given out in late 1933 to a handful of industrialists who were large contributors financially to the movement.

was said with such authority and conviction, it should be easy to show us the documentation that confirms that fact. One doesnt make claims in such a declarative manner unless one knows for sure, a knowledge obtained through period documentation. I too would like to know the source of Rons knowledge of this fact. Again, Ron, youre being asked to provide your source, or admit that there is no source, that this is perhaps "just what youve always heard".

Something about that statement just smacks of heresay and urban legend. Its nothing I can put my finger on, it just doesnt sound quite right. Craig isnt sure what the dagger is for either:

My personal opinion, based upon another bird's head type dagger I located several years ago in the hands of a LIVING veteran...is that this was some sort of very early dagger sold by Eickhorn as a special order.

..which isnt exactly a ringing endorsement for what Ron said, now is it?
I would want to know EXACTLY what I am buying if I am to pay that kind of sum.

And if it were a gift from the Party to industrialists, why is there an "SA" on the dagger? What on earth does the SA have to do with anything? If its truly "custom made specifically for the industrialists", I could see NSDAP Party icons and/or swastikas, but SA? that doesnt make any sense to me...

Again, I dont have the collecting pedigree of many of the members here, but mere 'suggesting' and 'innuendo' are not enough to legitimize questionable pieces to me.

Incrementally, (though accelerated of late) this notion of "its real until proven otherwise" has begun to permeate this hobby. I take the approach of "its fake until proven otherwise", especially when such large sums of money are involved. More and more this trend of 'reasonable doubt' is used to justify questionable pieces, and when challenged the proprietors cry "jealousy" or "foul". There seems to be a widening grey area in this hobby with more and more pieces being tossed into this grey area. (have you ever noticed that the items occupying the grey areas are always high-end, über expensive pieces?)
I will continue to inhabit the black and the white, well known, well documented areas of the hobby. Until I see real proof, ie period photos, catalogues, or manufacturer specs, I have no choice but to believe that these are post-war.

There's no debate here Fred - you're welcome to your opinion... but at the end of the day, I had a living veteran with a clear memory of events.

"There's no debate here?"
-really? No debate, huh? A single veterans memory of more than 70 years ago is concrete evidence, this is all we need to close the discussion and move on? This mans testimony solidifies beyond all doubt that this is legit? Because of your audio recording, we as a collecting community can rest easy knowing that we need to know nothing further about this dagger, this is your contention? No debate, no other evidence required, just the fact that the person who stands to gain the most from this being considered real says its real? These daggers are fully legitimized, and are now free to change hands at $60k, $70k or more on the basis that you interviewed a vet and recorded it on audio!!! I truly think this is the most laughable thing I've read on this forum! "A vet told Craig its real, so there you have it, collecting community, its real! Now fork over $70k without question! There is no debate!!!!"


Just because it was in the hands of a man who served does not make it legit. How many times have you or Ron or anyone purchased lots from vets that had reproductions mixed in? If it has ever happened even once, then you have to accept that just because it comes from a vet doesnt make it legit beyond debate. And if you accept that, then you cant say that there is "no debate".

and I aplogize, but this:

Sorry, but I don't have to rely on a veteran story to sell a dagger.

seems like exactly what youre doing.. In fact, in the face of the fact that there is no other evidence, it seems like all youre doing...

[Don D.]

To everyone in general and to nobody in particular I would recommend that we keep the discussion about the dagger and not about Craig. I know quite a few of you were members of GDC and I also know some of this attitude re Craig has migrated over here from your time there. Discuss the item and only the item or the migration will be reversed.

[David Guist]

Well said Don. If I like an item I will buy it because of that reason. If I dont like it I just wont buy it. Best regards.

[Craig Gottlieb]

Don: Very well put. I will stay out of this conversation, as it appears that the usual mob has assembled yet again for still another Craig-Burning. As such, little will come of this thread. By the way, the Birdshead was placed on hold by Bruce Petrin, which was obviously intended as a funny joke.

[Jo Rivett]

...I will stay out of this conversation, as it appears that the usual mob has assembled yet again for still another Craig-Burning. As such, little will come of this thread.

Rubbish ! don't forget, we are talking about an Item worth $70,000.- here. (if the blade was not restored $100,000 maybe)
Plenty will come out of this thread, you will finally be able to prove to the collecting world that these Daggers are in fact NOT fantasy pieces and indeed legit TR items.
When people jump up and down and call "things" fake, would it not be the best thing, and most humiliating to those here, to just simply turn around and whack, Solid, Steadfast Proof down on the table, thus smearing egg all over the faces of those who have "gathered for a Craig burning concert" ?

1 shred of period proof can silence 10,000 posters screaming Fantasy. And help the collecting community emensly in the future.

[David Guist]

Again this is about the dagger only not any person. Lets keep it thats way.

[tanker]

Hello
You have the ultimate say in this, but this happens too many times. Craig list items and has questionable motives, doesn't provide real evidence and then steps backs and lets it appear he is getting pounced on and is the innocent person in this only trying to provide the collecting community a piece of history.
He is just as much a part of this discussion as the dagger. His actions/defence is (at least to me) one of the same. Ron

Again this is about the dagger only not any person. Lets keep it thats way.

[Frogprince]

I first heard of the “DAF birds-head dagger” on 28 July 2007 at 15:03 hours. No discussion, and on 05 August 2007 the sharing of pictures of the dagger was expressly forbidden. So my curiosity was aroused, but I could not really put a “face” on the dagger until now. With my interest at the time being more of an academic one - until after I actually had a look at the dagger and its quality of (or lack of) workmanship.

But now that I see it. One of the more interesting aspects at this point is the combination of both the DAF and NSBO symbols on the gold finished dagger (the one with the relatively large flaws in the pommel casting). With the NSBO having something of a tilt to the left. FP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...enorganisation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Labour_Front

[Don D.]

Hello
You have the ultimate say in this, but this happens too many times. Craig list items and has questionable motives, doesn't provide real evidence and then steps backs and lets it appear he is getting pounced on and is the innocent person in this only trying to provide the collecting community a piece of history.
He is just as much a part of this discussion as the dagger. His actions/defence is (at least to me) one of the same. Ron

First infraction given. I hope the rules are clear. Discuss the item.

[tanker]

I guess I won't be posting anymore! Like he says, If you don't like the rules you are free to go elsewhere.

I'm through collecting anyway. Adios!

First infraction given. I hope the rules are clear. Discuss the item.

[mametz]

If anyone buys this dagger for the price mentioned they need a
check up from the neck up.
Mametz