HJ Knife solid red diamonds

[Mac 66]

"Quote Victorman"

Another try, but wrong again, Mac!

Talk to someone who does emaille work (which are the HJ diamonds): a dotted diamond is a more advanced technique and is therefore more expensive to produce.



Herman,

The Dotted diamonds are not a more advanced technique at all but if you look at your hj knife on e-stand you will see that the dotted pattern is actually moulded when the base plate of the daimond was manufactured, then simply filled with clear red enamel to give the desired scale affect, i have examined many a broken hj daimond over the years & know what i,m talking about, its the late war Zinc daimonds that were the cheapest to produce as they were painted red & white with black Swaz to give the desired affect.

Here is 2 Photos of a broken solid red & broken clear red to add to this thread, notice it does not have the same type moulded dots in the base plate as the clear enamel daimond ,



Regards Mac 66.

[Heran]

Hi all,

it is a really interesting thread. Just a question:

Did this type of badge existed in the TR? is there any proof or period document which confirms its existance?

Thanks in advance

Best Regards

Heran

[Victorman]

Hello Heran,

On HJ daggers: these is not any historical proof whatsoever that these full reds are period.

Badges: all senior collectors I know are avoiding them.

But someone here will certainly tell you that "proof is coming"... in a year or so...

Best regards,

Herman

[Mac 66]

Mac,

Relax... you said I sell low end stuf and you just bought that low quality piece... so don't call me a lier when the proof is in the topic itself, please!

Your question?.. I don't think the forum has any interest in it... but I'll answer just to make you happy!

I don't believe I have x-rayed those two late Hörsters, so am I 100% sure that the diamonds are no replacement? The answer is: no.

But based on my in hand inspections, their fine quality and where I got them from, I believe that the chance of their diamonds being authentic must be higher than 95%.

Now lets just compare our attitudes: you estimate the chance of authenticity of the diamond on that low end piece of yours at 100%; while any advanced collector knows that the chance is simply 0% !

And than you keep on telling me "...keep an open mind..."

Best regards,

Herman

Herman,

Thanks for your answer,

To clear the point you make that my late RZM Horster is a low end peice is true to a certain extent as it has some rust on the scabbard & it had some gunge on the blade from never been cleaned in almost 70yrs that i gently cleaned away to reveal some origional crossgrain, apart from that as you know the Late RZMs have a poor build quality with Zinc hilts & poor nickle plating, i have seen many late RZM hj knifes for sale in worse condition than mine with broken griplates, missing scabbard hangers ect that i would consider to be low end.


Herman, the 0% of Authenticity of my knife with solid red is not true as there are more believers in this thread alone & on hj Research forum & most likely some old time blade collectors who dont want to post on this thread,

You should keep an open mind for future information on the solid red case that will most likely put this case into a different light, but i said earlier its up to the collector to decide either way.



Regards Mac 66.

[Mac 66]

Quote RussellM Question: Jo, regarding the base of the opaque diamonds, I stand to be corrected on that one. But, I'm sure I have a pic of a damaged version with a flat base beneath it. I'll see if I can find it and will post if successful, pic attached

Quote by Jo on hj Research forum regarding the solid red production process as he does not post on WAF.

The surface is not flat, but roughed up. It needs to be in order for the enamel to adhere to it. This Roughed up, Gravel, or wavy pattern can be found on many translucent enameled badges as well. (not just bubbles - rice corns - stippling.
If you break the enamel off of good badges, (with opaque red) you will find an array of patterns, lines, score marks, and if the same die was used, then obviously the same die with rice corns or bubbles. The more opaque red badges you inspect, the more it becomes clear that a "change" happened, into the zinc period we also find makers using the same dies with "stippling - or bubbles " - just painted over, and towards the end of the zinc period you find that new dies were made, with no pattern and a different reverse made to accommodate lugs or other ways of affixing the attachment without solder. But they all have some form of pattern, even though you may think it looks blank, it is not. Enlarge a portion and you will see..

The pattern, is applied by hand, not by transfer when reducing the die from the master,(or working hub) the master (and hub) is blank. So if the die maker, or badge maker knew that he would need to only paint the badge, then he would save the work of adding the pattern(s) by hand and leave it blank. If they knew that opaque was being used (which at some point is was, used across Germany and the annexed terr. by most, or all makers at the same time) then there is no need to invest extra time in making a fancy pattern that nobody will see, and instead all that needs to be done is that the surface needs to be roughed up, or have "some" quick roughing up added so that the enamel will adhere.

I covered this in-depth in the book, with many, many detailed images to best explain, so i cant go on here anymore about that. Just wait till summer next year! This "background" pattern Topic is covered extensively in the book, and i must admit, had me captured for many months. It`s not only mentioned, but gone into in detail like never before. The study of this small "element" alone, can contribute in a positive way in future evaluations, if it is correctly understood in relationship to manufacturing and period construction regarding equipment etc etc... BUT, you need really good images!!

This is the problem today with small images like the one you just posted, where to be honest, if you didn't know what you were on about, would lead you to reach 100 different opinions. When specifics are studied, in-depth, using magnified images, as well as a clear understanding of why you are seeing what you are seeing, it makes outing the fakes, Easy!



Regards Mac 66.

[Heran]

Thanks Mac, Thanks Victorman.

Like Adrian Stevenson, I also know Mr. Jo Rivett and his obsession(?) to dig in in period publications, period regulations and books, etc. So, I guess that book will clarify many things, hopefully.

Regards

Heran

[Frogprince]

........................ Like Adrian Stevenson, I also know Mr. Jo Rivett and his obsession(?) to dig in in period publications, period regulations and books, etc. So, I guess that book will clarify many things, hopefully.............

I also know of Jo Rivett, and personally like to see the results from specialists in a particular area versus someone may lack the more specific knowledge/expertise. With his point well taken about very close examinations because many times I’ve seen more information gathered from an item that has been “tested to destruction” ie: aged, or otherwise damaged etc. - giving up clues to how it was made. Because underneath the surface on both types there seems to be texturing of one kind or another, with both the opaque and more transparent types. Which includes both the white and black opaque enamels as well.

Having also seen some (what looked to me like period TR artifacts) other than the HJ emblems that have a more opaque appearing red enamel filling in the design. But then I’m not a specialist in them - so it seems that I also may be one of those who is going to want to see what the book says about the TR period manufacturing techniques. FP

[Mac 66]

FP,

IMO this is the best informative thread on the net on solid red/opaque enamel daimonds & Jo Rivetts Book will put this case to rest for collectors with an open mind & common sense, but there will always be the stubborn nae sayers,

Another small peice of information that i have personally found over the years is that all the hj knifes with solid red enamel insignia i have bought & seen for sale all came from the USA & Canada, i never found any in Europe or anywhere else on the globe,

All were late RZMs with no motto & nickle plated Zinc hilts, all the ones i bought had good movement to the daimond insignia with no signs of tampering & were all complete,

I always asked each of the sellers where there knifes came from & there reply was WW2 US Vets & usually brought back from Germany with a bunch of other items that they offered me for sale.



Regards Mac 66.

[Ron Weinand]

Solid Red HJ Diamond

Directly from the veteran and no doubt they are real

[Mac 66]

Directly from the veteran and no doubt they are real

Ron,

Many Thanks For This Info

This is great news to hear


Best Regards Mac 66.

[JR.]

I'm going to have to read this thread from the beginning, but I too have had HJ knives that have had solid red HJ diamonds as well, and have thought them to be period.

[Mac 66]

I'm going to have to read this thread from the beginning, but I too have had HJ knives that have had solid red HJ diamonds as well, and have thought them to be period.

Thanks JR

I Knew some of you long time Dagger/Knife collectors had purchased hj knifes with solid red daimonds & thought them to be genuine

Any other collectors out there have any opinions on hj knifes with solid red daimonds ?


Regards Mac 66.

[Victorman]

Ron,

I do understand that you -and many other dealers- are stongly pro the full red diamonds, because it could open new business oportunities if they would be accepted.

But can we see the complete knife you show here? Is that a Klittermann & Moog 1941 HJ-knife? From the 2 pictures shown, the quality is -as usual- not there at all...

The diamond seems to be sticking out a lot in my opinion and you now very well that "vet stories" don't mean a thing when it comes to authenticity. They are used all the time to justify bad charasteristics of a piece.

Actually when I hear "vet stories" from dealers, I always double check the piece!


Mac,

Did you found out about that puzzle I proposed you? I'm sure you are interested in the extra knowledge on HJ's it will bring you!

Best regards,

Herman

[Heran]

If you ever want to become an expert on HJ's, Mac, than you should stop making a fool out of yourself with meaningless posts on -I don't know how many forums?- and do some real research on HJ's: in the field!

Hallo Victormann,

Sorry, just a question from a person who is learning (llike me).

The research should be done also with period German publications, right? or it is better only field experience? or both?

Thanks in advance

Regards

Heran

[Frogprince]

Hallo Victormann,

Sorry, just a question from a person who is learning (llike me).

The research should be done also with period German publications, right? or it is better only field experience? or both?

Thanks in advance

Regards

Heran

Hallo Heran,

I know that your question was addressed to someone else, but please permit me to try and illustrate what I think may be an impediment to a direct answer - that is not intended to focus on any one individual.

Field experience: In my travels I've seen what look like to me period RZM marked Party pins with what appears to me to be an opaque red enamel in the recesses. From a (roughly) handful of maker ID's, although there may be more. With not my experience, but someone who I know of who I think is fairly knowledgeable, and who has no problem with them.

German publications: From some old research where I don't remember who supplied it, I see an RZM reference to Chrome-Steel blades with a specified content of 13% to 14.5% chromium.

So what does that tell us, when added to some other irregularities that we see with the HJ knives??

Best Regards, Fred