Anyone else ever wonder where the illustrious Joe Rivet went? I think he's closer that we all think ... *hint* *hint*. Doesn't make it too hard when he uses the same verbiage in his posts along with underlined text and goofy smiles all the time ....
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Hi Darrell,Originally posted by Darrell View Post
This is not Jo as he knows what hes talking about on the subject .
Regards Mac 66.Comment
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HJ m7/29 1941
Solid Red Diamond: I have NEVER sold one, so it is not business embellishment to me and, I could care less about the business end as I am a dedicated HJ collector first. Next, after 55 years in the hobby and over 1000 HJ knives later, I think I know when one is replaced and when one is original to the piece.Comment
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Well said Ron, I couldn't agree more. I have followed this thread and the evidence is right in front of us... If we care to look at it and listen to others with 0 to gain from it, only the facts... Regards, Johnno.Originally posted by Ron Weinand View PostComment
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Thanks for showing the complete knife, Ron!
Now we can discuss it:
- The " Klittermann & Moog" logo seems hardly visible... So I suppose that vet must have cleaned that blade quite often.
- Or maybe he used it for other purposes as I also see serious sharpening on that blade...
- Not to offend you in any way, but I normaly am used to see different quality when you show pieces from your own collection...
- And again, noone can be 100% sure if a diamond is original to a knife without having it x-rayed!
Anyway, was Klittermann & Moog the maker that used full red's on his late HJ knifes?
No he was not: I have seen many knifes by this maker: some with and some without the diamond, but never with a full red!
And here is one of the last made by this maker: in 1942! The correct, dotted red diamond was used until the very end!
But otherwise look at the very typical parts this maker used on all his late knifes -both 1941 & 1942- : zinc rivets and a short fingerguard!
The scabbards are also typical, but Ron's piece does not seem to have one to compare with.
Best regards,
VictormanLast edited by Victorman; 11-05-2012, 04:05 PM.Comment
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Victorman, sorry your glass is only half full.Comment
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Quote by Victorman,
"And again, noone can be 100% sure if a diamond is original to a knife without having it x-rayed!"
Herman, So are you now saying if we have our solid red daimond insignia on our hj knifes x-rayed you will accept them to be 100% genuine ?
Remember your glass is only half full !
X-Ray Photo example supplied by RussellM,Comment
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I tend to look at blade making in Solingen (and elsewhere in Germany) in the context of what it would take to make an item, and how does it compare to what was happening in the military sphere of influence as regards the timeline etc., and some other related factors. So while the RZM in theory was supposed to have standards, in reality they were readily waived when confronted with what the real situation was - as it related to what was actually available to Solingen makers at the time. So we see relatively low quality steel (by even period standards) for at least some of the RZM blades, the move to zinc because iron/steel was being rationed (quotas - with the military getting priority). Substitutes for the leather hanging straps etc.
Political blade makers had to have from the RZM a license to manufacture blades. Badge/emblem makers had licenses to make what they made, and if I understand it correctly you were supposed to have multiple licenses to cover other categories if they were also being manufactured. With my point here being that they had to buy the emblems from somebody who made them, and how many do you order? 500, 1,000, 5,000, 10,000? Or do you order them as you need them, and hope that the maker can fill your order? And if he can’t supply them do you stop production? Or do you shop around to find somebody else who has some for sale? And with for example the hanging straps: Do you see a mixture of ersatz and conventional straps with a particular batch of knives? Or are there clear cutoff points? And did blade makers in Solingen ever acquire parts from another maker, or subcontract to other firms? FPComment
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FP,
Very interesting & helpful points you have made about the Production process & how hj knife parts including daimond emblems ect could have came from other companys or sub-contractors when various firms ran out of parts to complete there orders of hj knifes & bought in what was available at that point in time which could explain why we dont see a lot of hj knifes with solid red/opaque daimonds Vs translucent daimonds
Regards Mac 66.Comment
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I totally agree with what you stated here, FP.
And that is exactly the problem with these full red diamonds: they show up on all kind of knifes: late but also mid period ones, all different producers, the only thing they clearly have in common is the very low quality of the knifes they are mounted in (mostly glued in actually)...
All the other unusual, but typical parts are traceable to a certain maker(s), which -as you correctly said- must have been ordered in certain quantities.
Anyway I consider this topic as a "mission accomplished":
The market value - if we can use that term in case of these low quality HJ-knifes- of a full red diamond HJ knife is extremely low, comparable to certain fakes.
Why?
Because full red's are so far only mounted into leftover knifes, which otherwise would be stripped of their grip plates (most often only 1 remains intact) and their rivets. The rest has no value. As you have been able to see via many pictures shown here: the blades are all bad quality, and like the hilts: they are in abundant supply. So those would end up in the recycling bin anyway.
Often, these leftover, stripped HJ-knifes are being offered in little groupings, just for a couple of $'s.
By adding a fake (sometimes badge?) full red diamond, they become more "marketable", but the value remains extremely low.
And, as we know, the market is always right!
Like with the other questionable HJ stuff: DJ knifes, Nurnberg knifes, Olympia knifes... let the "believers" continue to buy them!
They have been warned enough!
And in the case of the "full red's", they will not be ripped off for a high amound of $'s!
Best regards,
HermanLast edited by Victorman; 11-07-2012, 03:59 AM.Comment
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Quote Victorman
Anyway I consider this topic as a "mission accomplished":
Herman,
Mission is "NOT ACCOMPLISHED" as there are many hj knifes with solid reds with NO DAMAGE to the griplates & rivets with a perfectly fitting solid red/opaque daimond with the required movement that have not been tampered with & are in good condition with top quality period TR produced daimonds,
Also Do Not Forget there are many broken & faked up hj knifes with the Translucent/clear red daimonds!!,
Many Questions asked that you Never Answered because you Dont Know ??
NO SOLID EVIDENCE from you or anyone else that solid reds are fake ect ect,
Anyway you are a Non Believer so whats the point arguing with you anymore on this subject,
When Jo Rivetts New Book comes out summer 2013 buy it & have a good interesting read that will hopefully open your mind to the solid red/opaque daimonds as he goes into great detail on this subject with intensive production research, he also did a lot of destruction tests as well on many genuine & fake TR badges & pins to see how they were constructed, Jo also worked in a small badge & medal factory to understand the enameling process ect, there is also a 70 plus page chapter on sub contracting work & the manufacturing process, who applied the enamel, who assembled the daggers etc etc.... in his 550 page analysis , As i said it will BLOW YOU AWAY!!
As Ron Said: "Your Glass Is Only Half Full"
For myself & the senior WAF members who believe them to be 100% Genuine,
"It Aint Over Till The Fat Lady Sings"
Regards Mac 66.
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Here my HJ dagger with plastic hanger and sollid red daimondComment
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the daimodComment
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