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    #1

    SA dagger by Ed Wüsthof?

    Hello everyone,

    I have this here marvellous surprise that I would like to pick your knowledgeable brains about. It seems to be of genuine age. Still, I don't know anything about weapons

    The blade seems to be covered in goo, or grease. I'm not sure what it is, but since it is a weapon, and made of steel, maybe I should leave it goo'ed (is that even a word??). You guys didn't let me clean any medals so I'd best ask you guys up front what's best

    What worries me is the grip. It seems damaged. However, the grip is firm; it doesn't wobble or move, and the crack or split or whatever seems to be only superficial. However, if this dagger is fake, it doesn't matter anyway. If it IS real, does it need repair? Or a replacement grip? Or something?

    What do you think? And who is Ed Wüsthof? And what does WF stand for, this is engraved in the metal part below the eagle and above the blade. Does anyone have any information on this weapon? See images below... I hope everyone can see them. They are coming from my Wehrmacht-Awards album.

    Very best regards,
    Karin-Renate



























    Mehr sein als scheinen
    Tags: None
    #2
    Wf is abbreviation for Westfalen SA group.

    Comment

      #3
      It also looks to me that it's a "ground Rohm". It has the smaller makers logo and I think I see the tip of the tail remaining on the "m' in Rohm at about 3/4 of an inch up at 11:00 o'clock position from the logo.

      -wagner-

      Comment

        #4
        Thanks!

        Hi Wagner,

        Thanks for your remarks!

        Originally posted by wags View Post
        It also looks to me that it's a "ground Rohm". It has the smaller makers logo and I think I see the tip of the tail remaining on the "m' in Rohm at about 3/4 of an inch up at 11:00 o'clock position from the logo.

        -wagner-
        A ground Rohm? Is that related to Ernst Röhm? He was the SA leader. That is what I read at least. When I Google for "ground rohm" I read about daggers that have been abused by grinding off some text related to Röhm. I can see how Röhm got on Hitler's bad side for his social points of view. What exactly would have been removed from the dagger? A motto? A name?

        Can I remove the goo/grease from the dagger in order to make better shots, and see if there ever was an inscription? Or can I measure the height of the blade or something, to check if it has been filled? Or sandblasted? Or whatever it is they did to this dagger?

        And, may I shyly conclude that this dagger is an original? Can it be repaired? The grip I mean. Does it need a replacement?

        Very best regards,
        Karin-Renate
        Mehr sein als scheinen

        Comment

          #5
          Very much obliged!

          Hi Gator,

          Originally posted by GatorGDC View Post
          Wf is abbreviation for Westfalen SA group.
          Thank you very much! I didn't know where to begin to look for information on those two letters Your help is much appreciated!

          Very best regards,
          Karin-Renate
          Mehr sein als scheinen

          Comment

            #6
            Hello Karin,

            Yes ole Ernst Rohm got on the bad side of the Fuhrer and was taken away in June 0f 1934.
            ...and by order of the Fuhrer, as Rohm was branded a traitor as in ancient tradition, his name and likeness was removed from everywhere including these early Rohm dedication daggers which yours is an example.
            Your dagger was made between Feb - May 1934.
            The removal order was given to remove the the inscription by grinding or filing.
            Some were removed by the owners at home or some were sent back to the factory for a professional and "clean" removal. Some of the ones done at home had only removed the "Ernst Rohm" name and left the rest of the dedication in place. Seems like that was allowed. Today those example are called "Partial Rohm's". Your example is known as a "Full Ground Rohm".
            At one time your dagger had this dedication on it.


            On many of the home done removal jobs it was difficult to remove the tail tip of the "m" in "Rohm" since the etching seemed to be deeper in that particular spot. So that is what is left on yours and normally what I look for when I see aslo the smaller maker logo's that usually means a "Rohm Dedication Dagger".


            IMO I would not do any restorations or repairs on this particular piece.
            Whatever you do it will not increase it's value. Any replacement of parts will turn it into a "Parts Dagger".

            Regards,
            -wagner-

            Comment

              #7
              Here is another example of a Full Ground Rohm on an Early Eickhorn with again the tail tip of the "m" still visible.

              -wagner-


              Comment

                #8
                O m g !

                Originally posted by wags View Post
                Hello Karin,

                Yes ole Ernst Rohm got on the bad side of the Fuhrer and was taken away in June 0f 1934. ...

                Regards,
                -wagner-
                OMG Wagner, everything you say, WOW, it is overwhelming! By two little "spots" on the dagger you can tell this much about it! I'm speechless ... I've read about the Röhm Putsch. People will always be people, it is a nasty and treacherous story of all time. I've been reading on it since I found this here dagger. It is a piece of history! Again: WOW

                It being a weapon, it scared me somehow because of its purpose. A bit of a false sentiment maybe, because, well, I'm here, aren't I? It is war all around. Still, weapons are WAY more close to violence than medals are I know, I'm just a girl, but still

                However, this dagger is gorgeous. Someone offered me a replacement grip. In my enthusiasm I agreed to a trade; a fake EK1 Spange plus a fake wound badge for a grip. The fake items are displayed here at Wehrmacht-Awards. I'm not sure if the grip is real, but I gave it a shot. Do you mind if I run it by you if it arrives? However, if I read your comment, I should stay away from replacing the damaged grip?

                Can I find out just how bad the damage of the current grip is? Already I've been told to "treat" the crack with shoe polish. Transparent/clear shoe polish, with a spongy tip. Apply it, let it dry and buff it a bit. Should I do that? What exactly should be right for me to do in order to preserve this pretty dagger?

                Flabbergastedly thanking you,
                Karin-Renate
                Mehr sein als scheinen

                Comment

                  #9
                  Do NOT replace the handle,then it turns into a "parts dagger"and that is not good.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Krullies View Post
                    Can I find out just how bad the damage of the current grip is? Already I've been told to "treat" the crack with shoe polish. Transparent/clear shoe polish, with a spongy tip. Apply it, let it dry and buff it a bit. Should I do that? What exactly should be right for me to do in order to preserve this pretty dagger?

                    Flabbergastedly thanking you,
                    Karin-Renate
                    Karin,
                    I would like to suggest that you take some photos of good detail concentrating on the crack. From the photos it appears to be on both sides of the eagle. It almost looks like it was broken in half and reglued back together misaligned. Do not treat it with anything for now!
                    I will post more after you post some better photos of the damage.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      If you order a knew grip on the net, there is a huge chance it won't fit. Those early dagger grips fitted precisely against the dagger fittings. I would leave it like it is. It can result in a big gap between grip and fitting.


                      Regards, Theo
                      (Wim Vangossum)
                      Freedom is not for Free

                      Comment

                        #12
                        It looks like you have an original, ground Rohm, SA dagger by Wustof.I would leave the grip alone.As other members have said,if you find a replacement grip, it will not fit right.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Krullies View Post
                          However, this dagger is gorgeous. Someone offered me a replacement grip. In my enthusiasm I agreed to a trade; a fake EK1 Spange plus a fake wound badge for a grip. The fake items are displayed here at Wehrmacht-Awards. I'm not sure if the grip is real, but I gave it a shot. Do you mind if I run it by you if it arrives? However, if I read your comment, I should stay away from replacing the damaged grip?

                          Karin-Renate
                          Karin,
                          I would agree with the others about replacing the handle, however, since you have already agreed to the trade and these come apart easily with the right wrench, there is nothing wrong with at least trying the other handle to see how it fits. If it were mine and I had the option of another handle that fits well, I would replace it while in my collection for display purposes. I would not get rid of the original handle so that when I decide to move this piece on for something else, I would then put the original back on.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            More questions

                            Hi Wagner, hi "rbminis",

                            I made some new pictures today. Some in bright sunlight outside, some inside in daylight. I tried to grab the focal points; the crack(s) in the grip, the supposed remnants of Röhm, and some details I learned about today because I ... TOOK IT APART! I was enjoying the dagger in my hands, beholding it, and my fingers played with the pommelnut as it slightly twisted (YES, I had to look up all the names of the parts I encountered today in order to describe it to you ) Twisting the nut further, the dagger came appart. The crossguards have inscriptions, albeit hard to read. The blade also has an inscription, not engraved but rather embossed, laying on the blade.

                            Anyway, let's start. Here is the grip, again. It looks quite okay on first sight.


                            Looking closer, the crack is noticeable. Here is a side view:


                            A view from the bottom up:


                            A view on the crack/split above the right wing of the eagle:


                            A close(r) up of the damage above the wing:


                            And another close up of the damage below the eagle:


                            The marked crossguards:


                            The marked blade:


                            A close up of the blade, two spots are marked that seem to be remnants of Röhm. Both spots look identical:


                            A close up of the spot on the right:


                            And a close up on the left:


                            Can you please advice me how to handle the damaged grip? It looks like someone tried to rip out the eagle at a point in history. Luckily, he/she did not succeed, or that someone was able to put it back in. However I'm told them stubborn eagles don't let go of the dagger easily, so I guess whoever did this was not successful in removing it.

                            Another question. As another grip is on its way (I hope, I sent my end of the deal on its way yesterday), would it be harmful to replace the grip, and keep the original grip with the dagger also? I found this awesome little cabinet on the market today, the dagger fits right in: it sits behind glass, protected from grabbing fingers, dust and so on, plus it has room for the extra grip. I'm not sure if this here dagger is worth anything substantial, so this might be the very first piece that actually will be in my living room, hanging on the wall, proudly emitting its historical atmosphere

                            Oh, another question regarding the grip I traded. I don't have images of it (I know, I know, I might have been silly, and tragically ripped off, but I like to think positive, at least until I'm proven wrong, and hey, them fakes of me are of no use anyway, I think). I believe my dagger to be early period. How can I find out from what period the "new" grip is when it arrives? Does anything give that away? I think the eagle might tell something, but how? And what? Please advice

                            I was given a tip that I should treat the grip with clear/transparent shoe wax. Let the applied wax dry, and rub it off gently after it dries. This will fill the crack, and protect it from growing, getting filthy and so on. Is this correct?

                            Regarding the Röhm marks; are they actually Röhm marks? Spots left behind after a ground? Or grinding? Or whatever it is called?

                            Last (for now ) but not least, what is the meaning of these crossguard inscriptions? And the embossed 0 on the blade?

                            I know I've been asking A LOT of questions here again. Thanks for bearing with me guys. And thank you (once more) very much in advance for any information you are willing to spare! I truly am very, very grateful.

                            Very best regards,
                            Karin-Renate
                            Last edited by Krullies; 07-04-2009, 05:35 PM. Reason: Typos, typos, typos
                            Mehr sein als scheinen

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Krullies View Post
                              Hi Wagner, hi "rbminis",
                              I was given a tip that I should treat the grip with clear/transparent shoe wax. Let the applied wax dry, and rub it off gently after it dries. This will fill the crack, and protect it from growing, getting filthy and so on. Is this correct?

                              Very best regards,
                              Karin-Renate
                              Karin, do not do this.
                              At least wait until your new handle shows up before making any changes.

                              Comment

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