Adolf Hitlers Visor at Craig Gottliebs

[Arran]

Gentlemen, don't be so quick to buy into Royster's analysis of the cap. He states the following:

This is the embroidered eagle from the cap. In all cases, this emblem was embroidered direrctly into the cap itself

This is completely incorrect. In NO cases was it embroidered directly, but was applied similarly to the one on Craig's cap. Proof of this can be seen upon close examination of the two wartime caps held since the war in the Russian archives, as well as the pre-war cap they have which has had the eagle removed. This would not have been possible had it been directly embroidered. I'll post pics if necessary.

[Arran]

I also agree with JC Gray that the logo is correctly printed on the lining, and not on the sweatshield. Gentlemen, why are some of you so quick to jump on to Royster's bandwagon? The devil really is in the details, not in what some yahoo says the details are. Study high-res period pics, and those of surviving examples with provenance, and then you would know what you're looking at. I can guarantee you that any Hitler cap with a direct-embroidered eagle is a fake...

[Obersalzberg]

Royster is so dumb....you can see the silk ribbing through the Holters logo....plain as day.

[Hoss]

Arran
Contact the Gent who wrote the report and voice your concerns. I know its an if but why would the owner need a dealer middleman the worlds wealthiest collectors would have purchased this uniform straight from the owner if legit imo.

Eric

[panzer nco]

Very intresting Read !! I wonder what craig has to say about it .. I beleive his no longer on the Waf.


http://www.adroystermilitaria.com/Di...ng_a_Fraud.php

[DonC]

Love him or hate him, Craig always makes for interesting reading. I always feel like I should have a martini in hand before I start to wade through all the posts on these threads, and often feel the need to wash my hands afterward...

As for Royster, he has his own agenda and his claims should be treated with as much caution as Gottlieb's or any one else's.

Don

[Brian S]

If even a damaged pimp gets a premium on an article that valuable (1 mill, ) that's a lot of pimp share of hnd jobs.

I thought it was awesome to see the items and in great quality. And, never had a bad transaction with Craig.

[Adam S.]

I think Royster's case against the shirt is pretty solid. Less so the cap.

[Federico Perez]

In my very personal opinion and view there are some details put forward by Mr.Royster that do not add up,

First, that the shirt is a "standard SA RZM MASS produced" one that a customs Holter tag was added, I do not think so, this two AH brownshirts are made of a finer quality cloth than standard SA "rzm control" ones, the shirts have a custom collar/neck closure not found on regular SA shirts, the type and cut of the two pockets scallop flap covers are very distintive, that ALL the party armbands where silk construction, I do not belive so, in some very good collor photos of hitler in brownshirt you can see quite clearly that the armband is either high quality cotton or wool, the particular "shine" of silk cloth is absent in the look of the armband.

I do not understand why he say that the shoulderstrap "cloth loop" is missing, I can see it clearly in the photos of the shirt....and is also present in the second AH brownshirt I was able to see, touch and inspect personally some years ago in a private collection. The pocket taylor tags are virtualy the same. In my personal opinion taking in consideration these high quality custom details, historical provenance and other facts, I doubt these shirts are "standard rzm production" SA shirts.....would like to know WHERE the standard RZM cloth tag was sewn on these shirts.....because if they where in the same location at the bottom of of one of the front panels. ....as are most if not all the contract rzm standard SA/NSDAP brownshirts....it will be VERY easy to see the "ghost" of it former application.

About the visor hat, others have make clear the detail that ALL the insignias on AH headgear was directly embroidered to the cap cloth theory is not correct, so dismissing the visor cap on that detail alone could be considered a hasty and uninformed decision. ..again on that detail alone.

I think the case here is the fact of WHO possess the items now, and the well know baggage of past problems, which seem to affect everything he touch now......no matter if is perfectly original.

[Arran]

I'm not into shirts so I had not really looked at Royster's analysis of it very closely, but I knew it was worth a closer look based on his faulty analysis of the cap. Federico has done an excellent job of that above, and note that Federico bases his opinions on the close study of period pictures, which is a must! I would never bother to contact Royster with my opinions, as suggested above. Winning an argument over the internet is like winning a medal in the Special Olympics- one's still a retard! (no offence meant to anybody!)

[Brian S]

Nice job evaluating the items and not the seller!

[rob NL]

Royster states that Hitler wore silver buttons on his brown shirt, that's not the case, there gold.

[J C Gray]

Further to Fredrico's analysis and just comparing the shirt with the colour photograph of AH on CG's site I would like to question a few other of Mr. Royster's dissections. Firstly,can we really be 100% sure that the BO is suspended from an EK ribbon?...maybe in one photo, from one particular angle, one could be forgiven for confusing the perspective of the left hand loop coupled with the dark shadow behind the black edging of the right hand loop, for the proportionate colouring of an EKII ribbon, however, from the other photos (and admittedly, the close-ups of the BO are conveniently cropped to omit the ribbon) the proportions of the coloured bands on the ribbon are more in keeping with those of a BO than an EK.
I would also like to question Mr. Royster's statement that all of Hitler buttons on this type of shirt were silver, but even a rudimentary search including the colour picture shown amongst the grouping, shows that he had at least one brown shirt with buttons made from some form of yellow metal.
Mr Royster also states that the wound badge should be further up the pocket, yet there are three photographs of Hitler in the listing which would appear to show it being worn in exactly the same place.
As for the claims that Hitler only ever wore a disc-backed EKI; can anyone confirm this? I know that there is at least one picture of him that shows his EK lying at a slight tilt, which would indicate a slipped screw-back, but as far as I remember that was on a four pocket tunic...I honestly don't know, but would it be feasible to mount a screw-back EK on a relatively flimsy shirt pocket or would this have been just as common a practice as a pin-back set up?

[ccnrecon]

If bob hritz examined the set and like it, that all the analysis i need to believe in the set.

[Arran]

Here are some pics of Hitler's caps which survive in Moscow which illustrate some of the points above: