Panzer Headgear Collection-Be Careful

[Leroy]

There are several WAF members who were there each time.

It would be interesting if they (and that includes you) could share their observations about these pieces.

[kammo man]

To be honest there is not much to say that has not already been said on the collection.

[48RMC]

No sorry,I just have the factory produced types.








Glenn

I think it's wisely to buy only factory produced types, private tailored specimens will always be a questionable and especially exotic pieces like these,..... thank you Glenn to make this publicly you have the guts to start this discussion and say it like it is in a straight way instead of beating around the bush and doing nothing then talking nonsense

[Glenn McInnes]

thank you Glenn to make this publicly you have the guts to start this discussion and say it like it is in a straight way instead of beating around the bush and doing nothing then talking nonsense

Thank you but hardly worth the bother.


Sadly,it seems several think that I was somehow picking on a collector who is no longer with us and who is not here to defend himself..That is just down right ridiculous.

Normally I would never bother as I see what I consider to be fakes posted on various websites all the time,some more that others, but when so many exotic items hit the market that are suspect then I think it should be called out...But collectors can make up their own minds as to what they want to own,at least now it is out there.

Thankfully,several collectors who I do consider to be "experts" in their own fields happen to agree that these items are not for them either..So I hope that I don't end up looking like some kind of an evil turd by starting these threads.




Glenn

[billbert]

Just cause... "I kinda like the piped custom overseas "..remember when it made a brief showing on EBAY from its source..Billbert

[OSS]

Thank you but hardly worth the bother.


Sadly,it seems several think that I was somehow picking on a collector who is no longer with us and who is not here to defend himself..That is just down right ridiculous.

Normally I would never bother as I see what I consider to be fakes posted on various websites all the time,some more that others, but when so many exotic items hit the market that are suspect then I think it should be called out...But collectors can make up their own minds as to what they want to own,at least now it is out there.

Thankfully,several collectors who I do consider to be "experts" in their own fields happen to agree that these items are not for them either..So I hope that I don't end up looking like some kind of an evil turd by starting these threads.




Glenn

It is an awkward set of circumstances to be sure, but anytime you care to sound the alarm on fakery, I will applaud you.

[billbert]

Ditto on above... Billbert

[BPA-Paul]

Thank you but hardly worth the bother.


Sadly,it seems several think that I was somehow picking on a collector who is no longer with us and who is not here to defend himself..That is just down right ridiculous.

Normally I would never bother as I see what I consider to be fakes posted on various websites all the time,some more that others, but when so many exotic items hit the market that are suspect then I think it should be called out...But collectors can make up their own minds as to what they want to own,at least now it is out there.

Thankfully,several collectors who I do consider to be "experts" in their own fields happen to agree that these items are not for them either..So I hope that I don't end up looking like some kind of an evil turd by starting these threads.




Glenn

Glenn, its certainly worth the bother and well done for making collectors aware ,to much time and money goes into this game to just not give a s%#t I applaude anyone that brings
to light and makes other collectors aware of items of militaria that is questionable on the market ,so a job well done at the end of day thats what these forums are for.

[90th Light]

This is an interesting thread for sure.

I said this in post number 5;

We all know in our own hearts if we are sincere in what we have posted about Richard since he died.

Chris

and this in post number 17;

The tailor made example which was the most interesting in my opinion, was the pink piped EM/ NCO one. I think the more one studied period images then the more one might find a tailor made example like that being worn.

Chris

Many thanks to "LuckyStrike23" for adding the link in post number 56. I have added the image from that below.

Plus the image of the general wearing a field grey wrap, in post number 45 was a real surprise worth seeing. Many thanks "Zauberflöte" for that one.

Again, I repeat that it would have been very interesting to hear Richard's take on each of these items and what he had discovered about them in the time that he had them.

Another thing is what he paid for each. Did he pay big money or did he pick some of these up for the price of the insignia alone ? Just as all that giltters is not gold, sometimes you make when you buy not when you sell. If he had got these at the right price then there may be no damage has been done,

Chris

[panzer nco]

Thank you but hardly worth the bother.


Sadly,it seems several think that I was somehow picking on a collector who is no longer with us and who is not here to defend himself..That is just down right ridiculous.

Normally I would never bother as I see what I consider to be fakes posted on various websites all the time,some more that others, but when so many exotic items hit the market that are suspect then I think it should be called out...But collectors can make up their own minds as to what they want to own,at least now it is out there.

Thankfully,several collectors who I do consider to be "experts" in their own fields happen to agree that these items are not for them either..So I hope that I don't end up looking like some kind of an evil turd by starting these threads.




Glenn

Glenn of course SOME are going to have something to say about Richard's Collection because of who he was.

But i beleive that MOST of us, Including myself are with you on this one.

Good work Glenn & i take my hat of to you Mate for Exposing the ovious truth !!!!


Mike....

[derka]

This is an interesting thread for sure.

Plus the image of the general wearing a field grey wrap, in post number 45 was a real surprise worth seeing. Many thanks "Zauberflöte" for that one.

Again, I repeat that it would have been very interesting to hear Richard's take on each of these items and what he had discovered about them in the time that he had them.

Another thing is what he paid for each. Did he pay big money or did he pick some of these up for the price of the insignia alone ? Just as all that giltters is not gold, sometimes you make when you buy not when you sell. If he had got these at the right price then there may be no damage has been done,

Chris

Chris,
i don't think what Richard paid for those items has any interest; the fact is that they were proposed for sale as original, hence hight prices.

but to dig on those items, why not ?
for instance, if you consider the tag inside the feldgrau general wrap :



there was a factory in Limoges, founded in 1915 by Gaston Veyrier Montagnèrers, and wich was initialy specialized in manufacturing military clothing.
the building still exist today, its adress is 7, rue Croix-Buchilien, but nowdays it has been transformed in a sports center :



it seems the name "établissements VEYRIER et Cie" was adopted only in 1951.
did it exist before as "établissements J. VEYRIER et cie." ? i don't know at this stage.
the fact is that this tag is probably not a fake by itself, but for the wrap and its insignias, it is another story...

[Leroy]

The appearance of so many non-textbook and exotic items all at one time would have drawn the attention, sooner rather than later, of someone here, whether it was Glenn McInness or Joe Shmoe. So, folks - if you can - "park" that element of this discussion, irregardless of your personal feelings one way or the other (and I have them, too) on the side of the road and don't let it distract you from the larger issues here.

The truth is that many of the items posted are inherently suspect just because of what they are. (Most personally scared the hell out of me as soon as I saw them.) The piped LAH wrap, the bandsman's wrap, the AG general's wrap, the black generals' sidecaps, the HG NCO wrap with the most outrageous "bling" HG officer level cufftitle I've seen in 50 years...where could you ever, rationally, expect to see these all together at one time, except in the display room of a high-end, and extremely talented, faker? No private collector could ever possibly amass real examples of so many pieces.

Or could they?

I believe the odds are extremely slim that these are all (or even mostly) real pieces and I suspect that the dealer who pulled these particular pieces from Richard's very large collection was "going for the gold" in a supremely short-sighted way, a way Richard would never have approved of or sanctioned if he had been unencumbered by disease (if he even knew of the plan at all before he died). Over-dosing on 'eye candy', either (one would hope) blissfully ignorant of, or not even thinking about, the crushing condemnation of Richard's evaluative skills as a collector which this specific selection would "enable", and the potential adverse effect of this result both on Richard's reputation and on the disposition, for the benefit of his family, of other pieces from his collection.

If you were a real friend of Richard's, you would know that he was a careful, honest and talented collector who for over 40 years carefully studied materials and sewing methods until he had mastered those fields and who had in his collecting life "outed" more fakers in the aviation field (a field most of us don't really know much about) than any man alive. They lived in fear of him. He hated fakers. He was not an arrogant or spiteful man and would do anything in his power to help other collectors. He despised arrogance and would not tolerate it in people who he knew made mistakes but would not acknowledge them. On the other hand, if he was confronted with proof that he was wrong, he would acknowledge it. He was picked on here, sometimes deservedly so, but other times viciously and without basis. Go back and read the contentious threads if you wish.

The only way to truly honor Richard's memory (and I honestly believe he would have wanted this) is to get to the bottom of these pieces. If they are proveably bad, then so be it. If some are legitimately possible, but have been falsely labeled definitively as bad, then that, however, needs to be known, too. Many people say the burden is upon the proponent to prove something "non-textbook" is good. It seems to me that is the wrong equation and the wrong "measure", and that, with "non-textbook" items, the search can never (except in the presence of perfect provenance) be to prove that something is good, but rather only that it is compatable with the period and could be good. That is the best you can ever hope for (unless God smiles and a photo pops up of the exact same piece in wear). If you can show from photographic evidence that similar items were produced and worn, and then demonstrate that there is nothing technically wrong with an item, then you are "there" (or at least as far as you can get for the moment). What will you have? Nothing comparable in value to an established, accepted piece, but only something which may be of interest. There is a BIG difference between being a sucker, however, and being wrong. When money value is the sole measure of your collection, you are no longer a collector but an investor. Richard loved collecting.

If you view this approach as a fruitless exercise, and a waste of time for serious collectors, fine. You are perfectly entitled to that opinion.

[90th Light]

If you were a real friend of Richard's, you would know that he was a careful, honest and talented collector who for over 40 years carefully studied materials and sewing methods until he had mastered those fields and who had in his collecting life "outed" more fakers in the aviation field (a field most of us don't really know much about) than any man alive. They lived in fear of him. He hated fakers. He was not an arrogant or spiteful man and would do anything in his power to help other collectors. He despised arrogance and would not tolerate it in people who he knew made mistakes but would not acknowledge them. On the other hand, if he was confronted with proof that he was wrong, he would acknowledge it. He was picked on here, sometimes deservedly so, but other times viciously and without basis. Go back and read the contentious threads if you wish.

Richard loved collecting.

Just one slice of the orange to show what "Leroy" is talking about. And I stress this is only one slice of it,

Chris

[OSS]

The appearance of so many non-textbook and exotic items all at one time would have drawn the attention, sooner rather than later, of someone here, whether it was Glenn McInness or Joe Shmoe. So, folks - if you can - "park" that element of this discussion, irregardless of your personal feelings one way or the other (and I have them, too) on the side of the road and don't let it distract you from the larger issues here.

The truth is that many of the items posted are inherently suspect just because of what they are. (Most personally scared the hell out of me as soon as I saw them.) The piped LAH wrap, the bandsman's wrap, the AG general's wrap, the black generals' sidecaps, the HG NCO wrap with the most outrageous "bling" HG officer level cufftitle I've seen in 50 years...where could you ever, rationally, expect to see these all together at one time, except in the display room of a high-end, and extremely talented, faker? No private collector could ever possibly amass real examples of so many pieces.

Or could they?

I believe the odds are extremely slim that these are all (or even mostly) real pieces and I suspect that the dealer who pulled these particular pieces from Richard's very large collection was "going for the gold" in a supremely short-sighted way, a way Richard would never have approved of or sanctioned if he had been unencumbered by disease (if he even knew of the plan at all before he died). Over-dosing on 'eye candy', either (one would hope) blissfully ignorant of, or not even thinking about, the crushing condemnation of Richard's evaluative skills as a collector which this specific selection would "enable", and the potential adverse effect of this result both on Richard's reputation and on the disposition, for the benefit of his family, of other pieces from his collection.

If you were a real friend of Richard's, you would know that he was a careful, honest and talented collector who for over 40 years carefully studied materials and sewing methods until he had mastered those fields and who had in his collecting life "outed" more fakers in the aviation field (a field most of us don't really know much about) than any man alive. They lived in fear of him. He hated fakers. He was not an arrogant or spiteful man and would do anything in his power to help other collectors. He despised arrogance and would not tolerate it in people who he knew made mistakes but would not acknowledge them. On the other hand, if he was confronted with proof that he was wrong, he would acknowledge it. He was picked on here, sometimes deservedly so, but other times viciously and without basis. Go back and read the contentious threads if you wish.

The only way to truly honor Richard's memory (and I honestly believe he would have wanted this) is to get to the bottom of these pieces. If they are proveably bad, then so be it. If some are legitimately possible, but have been falsely labeled definitively as bad, then that, however, needs to be known, too. Many people say the burden is upon the proponent to prove something "non-textbook" is good. It seems to me that is the wrong equation and the wrong "measure", and that, with "non-textbook" items, the search can never (except in the presence of perfect provenance) be to prove that something is good, but rather only that it is compatable with the period and could be good. That is the best you can ever hope for (unless God smiles and a photo pops up of the exact same piece in wear). If you can show from photographic evidence that similar items were produced and worn, and then demonstrate that there is nothing technically wrong with an item, then you are "there" (or at least as far as you can get for the moment). What will you have? Nothing comparable in value to an established, accepted piece, but only something which may be of interest. There is a BIG difference between being a sucker, however, and being wrong. When money value is the sole measure of your collection, you are no longer a collector but an investor. Richard loved collecting.

If you view this approach as a fruitless exercise, and a waste of time for serious collectors, fine. You are perfectly entitled to that opinion.

I am certain Richard P. would be touched by your efforts to preserve his good name. I imagine you became enamored with him through his expertise in aviation collectibles and perhaps came to believe he was infallable. It is, however, somewhat insulting to those of us who have spent many years examining original and fake German uniform items to suggest that we are simply bedazzled by these exotic high end offerings and have come to the conclusion that they must be fake simply because so many wondrous things could not possibly have been accumulated by a mere mortal. I am sure Glenn had the same reaction that I did when he first saw the items pictured on Grenadier Militaria: "what a pile of crap". If you believe these pieces can be somehow lawyered into being genuine I believe you are sadly mistaken. I am still not 100% sure these items are from the Richard P. collection, but if they are, he accumulated a number of high-end reproductions IMO. The most dangerous attribute a collector can have is the overwhelming desire to possess something so strongly that they discount their own better judgement. I have said before that it is mathmatically improbable that all of his collection is fake, but those pieces that were presented at the outset most assuredly are IMO.

[Ohlau]

I'm watching this topic and now i'm curious what is the thing of this discussion.

Looks like main theory is Richard have many fakes so most of his opinions were bad in opposite to well known rest ?

The most dangerous attribute a collector can have is the overwhelming desire to possess something so strongly that they discount their own better judgement.

Like in case of SS-Sturmbanfuhrer wrap who belonged to well known another collector ?