grommets:
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Hello LuckyStrike23,Originally posted by LuckyStrike23 View Post
the CW black panzer M34 which is discussed here http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...clemens+wagner in post numbers 28 to 31 has a less common type of grommet which appears to be the magnet type and unusual for CW. Also the stamp is not the regular style seen in the "beehive" CW tropical sidecaps and the CW field grey type like the one you have shown.
Thus there are anomalies which obviously can not be ignored in coming to a conclusion.
The grommets are period and I have found them used in other caps. Perhaps I will make a seperate posting showing those later plus a discussion I had with some other collectors about them. A big point against them in my mind now however, is the fact that I have never seen that type of less common grommet in a CW sidecap apart from this one which Richard had ???
. I have looked since the above highlighted thread first appeared but to date have not found another example ???
As for the stamp, please have a look at the image below. This is an SS officer cap which the "Collectors Guild" has just sold. It has a "non-regular" CW stamp using only "Brunschweig" as the location.
The other thing which is interesting about the SS officer stamp, is the fact that there is no date in the middle of it. When one sees the "Brunschweig-Hamburg" type, there is usually always a month and year which was updated, according to the production run. Not so however, with the "Brunschweig" version Hence, they have a space to put the size but there is no size on the Guilds's SS officer cap ???
Why such differences from the same maker ??? Different branches of the same company ??? Use of sub-contractors to meet deadlines or order size ??? We do not know for sure but the same thing has also been seen with "Carl Halfar" caps.
Of course, there no reason why the fakers have not copied the CW stamps and as we all know, they have. Thus it comes down to which fonts are good on a CW and which are bad. May be that is the deciding key here ???
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-19-2012, 04:54 PM.Comment
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CW stamp (Brunschweig-Hamburg) in a tropical sidecap for comparison with,
ChrisComment
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Yes exactly, thanks Leroy for posting them both on this thread. Not sure but maybe both of these may have potential. Don't really like the pink piped cap but thats just based on my opinion not facts.Originally posted by Leroy View Post
& Thankyou Chris (derka). Thats a fascinating thread on the CW Pz caps. Robb's doesn't look good to me. Based on the stamp alone. But the cap from DRS has those grommets similar to this CW and what looks to be a good stamp as well. Perhaps this is what helped Richard decide to pick one up.
The eagle application does not do it for me on any of these however. the CW eagle application on the tropical overseas caps is quite unique and hand sewn.
The bird almost jumps out at you on originals. Could be different i suppose.
Lucky Strike's outstanding example does show the eagle applied in the manner of the tropical CW sidecaps. Thanks for posting.
& 90th Light, good info too on the grommets and additional details. Here is what i can add on the two CW factorys. Sorry if you have read this before...
As for the stamp, please have a look at the image below. This is an SS officer cap which the "Collectors Guild" has just sold. It has a "non-regular" CW stamp using only "Brunschweig" as the location.
The other thing which is interesting about the SS officer stamp, is the fact that there is no date in the middle of it. When one sees the "Brunschweig-Hamburg" type, there is usually always a month and year which was updated, according to the production run. Not so however, with the "Brunschweig" version Hence, they have a space to put the size but there is no size on the Guilds's SS officer cap ???
Why such differences from the same maker ??? Different branches of the same company ??? Use of sub-contractors to meet deadlines or order size ???
The Collector's Guide to Cloth Third Reich Military Headgear by Gary Wilkins has a lot of information on Clemens Wagner including several ads of theirs which detail the fact that Hamburg was their "branch factory" and Braunschweig was their main factory. "Betriebsleitung nur Braunschweig" in that four line stamp means "Administration only at Braunschweig." Some of the CW tropical sidecaps are stamped with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval including one Wilkins shows that is dated 1943. They were using it in 1940, on SS wool sidecaps, but I've seen this same stamp in another cap....
Found a photo on the Any DAK Items thread. It is of a Clemens Wagner tropical sidecap belonging to our member Raymond with the stamp with an oval that only lists Braunschweig on the lower line inside the oval....Different stamps, Different factorys, same maker. The "standard" CW stamp in tropical sidecaps is with both "Hamburg-Braunschweig" inside an oval from the Hamburg site. The caps with just the Braunschweig in the oval have been labeled fakes by some but doubt this is correct.
Post # 762 - #764 Cap is Dated October '42
http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthrea...213638&page=51
Here is member Galizien41's Continental sidecap dated either '38 or '39. Post #2
http://70.87.163.50/forums/showthread.php?t=471628
I have heard that CW did not make the black Pz sidecap, but why not ? They made just about everything else in German headgear including the tropical M40 that also was thought to be non-exixstant for many years.....
Looking for everyones thoughts on this and any CW Pz cap, though better photos would help.Last edited by Tim O'Keefe; 10-20-2012, 03:48 AM.Comment
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first upper pics is the black sidecap recently offered for sell on grenadier site, and under are pics (#28 and 31) of DSR's black sidecap posted by Richard P in 2008 in the thread link i put below.
sorry i can't offer better for comparizon.
i think they could be in fact the SAME sidecap, because of the same precise area for decoloration spots visible on lining (bottom of the "6" of "56" for instance).
#29 in the 2008 thread would be then the grommet of the left side of the side cap.
it appears flashlights would give those different color of lining.
what do you think of this hypothesis ?Comment
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Agree, it crossed my mind but was not sure, so did not mention itOriginally posted by derka View Post
That explains the recent past of this cap but not the earlier....Comment
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so interesting questions could be :
- can this kind of grommets be considered as original ? they are magnet, splited in 6 parts, with different metals used.
if the answer is
for sure 100%, case is closed.
- if the answer is yes, then did different manufacturers used them ?
- and finaly, did CW make black sidecaps using this kind of grommets, knowing that different ("classical") grommets were used its factories for manufacturing continental and tropical sidecaps ?Comment
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Nevertheless Chris, regardless of what type of stamp is used, when placed in a cap like the ones shown in f.e. post #92 or #95 I would never doubt these since these caps can stand on themselves to convince and do not need a stamp to do so.Originally posted by 90th Light View Post...
Thus it comes down to which fonts are good on a CW and which are bad. May be that is the deciding key here ???
Chris
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Look the same to me, too.Originally posted by derka View Post
(On a side note, were you able to find any more information on the French tailor tag in the AG wrap?)Comment
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Well i have said I have never encountered a original black one by CW. I own some examples and I have a picture archiv with appr. 50 original panzer M34, but none of this maker (by the way CW M34 are rare birds in general - except of the tropical caps).Originally posted by Tim OK View Post
Perhaps they did not produce black ones because there was no panzer garrisson within a distance of several hundred kilomenters around Hamburg (as far as i know). Perhaps they did and I have just not seen one - who knows
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Not realy, it would need to search deeper in Limoges city archives.Originally posted by Leroy View Post
It seems according what i found in this source, that after the end of ww1 in 1918, the factory oriented its manufacturing activities towards civilian production, and no more in military clothing.
Les "établissements VEYRIER ET Cie." , who have this corporate name since 1951, sold this factory in 1959 to the "MANUFACTURE CENTRALE DE CHEMISES" (M.M.C.), an old textil trader from LIMOGES since 1846 originaly named "Maison DECAZEAU" wich was involved too into clothes manufacturing since 1929.
In 1966, the factory of la rue Croix-Buchilien was the main chothing manufacturer of the département de la Haute-Vienne, and even supervised another plant in CHALUS.
At the end of sixties, M.M.C. corporate name changed again into "Société DECAZEAU fils et Cie", untill it closed during eighties.
It should be noted anyway that les établissements VEYRIER were not a small tailor shop during ww2.
I found nothing untill now about a factory in PARIS linked with them during this period.
I didn't try a genealogical search with the VEYRIER name, starting from Gaston VEYRIER...Last edited by derka; 10-20-2012, 12:30 PM.Comment
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I would not spent too much time in this efforts. Its very simple to sew a original taylor tag in a fake jacket - and the tag is most likely original.Originally posted by derka View PostComment
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Logicaly yes, as it was not used anymore after : the "J." desappeared, but i don't know what was the precise period of use of this tag, ie during ww2.Originally posted by Leroy View Post
For LuckyStrike23, i just wanted to "shut the doors" and check if this tag, even very poorly seewn and not matching with the wrap condition, was "believable".
And imo the answer is no, considering a private order for purchasingga hight quality item as you would expect for a general, this factory would not have make it.
But the name sounds so "frenchy", isn't it ?
Btw, I believe since the begining that this wrap IS indeed a fake, but this was just not the point here.
derkaComment
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