I particularly like the recon wrapper from the Musikschule. I cannot think of a set of circumstances that would cause such a tunic to be worn except perhaps insanity.
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Well Glenn, i don't know, i just tried to clik on the link in your quote and the link opened directly.Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post
I do some search with a 2nd window opened on the forum at the same time as this one : when i find something i think wich could have some interest, i just copy the link of the thread from this second WAF window to here : easier, maybe it is ok only for me ?
Are there other members with the same problem ?
Otherwise, i have to download each pic on my computer, and to insert them here after, a little bit fastidious...
Last edited by derka; 10-21-2012, 02:53 PM.Comment
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Originally posted by derka View Post
The links work,I can see a few photos,just not the photos that started the threads and some others posted by different members.
Usually when this happens you have to sign in again (name and password) but still nothing.
Glenn"A Man's Got to Know His Limitations"Comment
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Originally posted by OSS View Post
Richard himself precised that "swallow nest" were seewn on this wrap and of LW type.Comment
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Originally posted by Leroy View Post
Hello Leroy,
I have two black panzer sidecaps which have that type of grommet. They are however not made by CW.
There are two slightly different sizes;
Type 1 = Officer cap grommet size. I have posted some comparative images with the grommets in 2 officer M38's. One of these officer caps was NZ veteran brought back from Italy in 1945.
Type 2 = Regular EM/ NCO cap size. I have compared this one with 2 KM billed tropical M42 caps both of which are NZ veteran brought back. The KM made extensive use of this type of magnetic grommet. In fact, one of the KM trop-M42 caps has a mix of both magnetic grommets and zinc grommets.
This type of magnetic grommet was used but it is not common in panzer sidecaps. One thing that has crossed my mind, were the cap makers short of black grommets ???
Keep in mind that the decision to produce the black panzer sidecap was not exactly planned and more of a response to Panzerwaffe demand for one. You also sometimes, see the use of field-grey grommets in a black panzer sidecap. Did they use boot maker grommets because some of these panzer sidecap grommets are gun blued or painted black and not always baked on black lacquered/ enamel.
Another interesting thing to note, my panzer cap with the larger Type 2, EM/ NCO magnetic grommet has a different grommet from another black panzer sidecap by the same maker in my collection. The other cap uses a regular zinc grommet black painted finish.
First up images;
"Type 1" smaller officer grommet compared with a grommet in the officer cap brought back from Italy. Both seem to have a painted finish but it could in fact be chemical blackening ???
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 01:11 AM.Comment
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Second up;
"Type 1" smaller officer grommet compared with another grommet in an officer M38 cap. This image nicely shows the comparable size of the two. The grommet on the panzer cap appears to be chemically blackened or gun blued. The grey grommet on the officer cap is baked on lacquered/ enamel,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 01:12 AM.Comment
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Third up;
"Type 2" larger EM/ NCO grommet compared with a NZ veteran KM trop-M42 which has all 4 magnetic grommets of this type,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 01:14 AM.Comment
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Forth up;
"Type 2" larger EM/ NCO grommet compared with another NZ vet brought back KM trop-M42. This second NZ vet cap has a mix of grommets. Two are the magnetic type and the other two are the zinc type,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 01:15 AM.Comment
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More food for thoughts, pics are not as good as i would like, but i did the best i can zooming with old pics i have in my files.
Those grommets are used in black pz sidecaps :
grommets are the same design type imo, with "small" splits, but washers are not the "flat " type.
Interesting point is that the second one is used in a sidecap with markings for "ROBERT LUBSTEIN" in 1940.
And i think this maker used "classical" zinc grommets too in 1940.Comment
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Thank you Nick,Originally posted by Nick Komiya View Post
for posting this information. I know of the find that you talk about here. When they opened the suitcase which I believe was in the possession of a member of "Monty's" staff. They found not only a tailor made DAK/ tropical generals tunic & billed M40 cap but the tailor made panzer wraps/ uniforms.
I believe that his family took out legal action to try and recover them because he had privately paid for everything himself and nothing was an issue item or property of the German government.
If one of those panzer generals sidecaps which Richard had was General Hermann von Hülsen's ( 21st Pz Div.) then that would be worth a small fortune in its own right. US $4000 would be a bargain.
Certainly at least one of them has a chance for sure because it has to be some where today,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 02:09 AM.Comment
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Lots of great info here guys just recently postedOriginally posted by Leroy View Post
Yes to all four.
1. Seems to be the case.
2. CW used the "classical" version.
3. CW handstitched the eagles not the zigzag.
4. The date is included within the circle if from Hamburg, not necessarily if the caps from Braunschweig post #95 original & 97 fake.
Chris derka, thats a beautiful CW Nov '40
Agree the Pz cap from 2005 is not good. Thanks for posting the links, and the thread started by Giorgio is a great read. Will take a good look at all the various grommet photos, thanks.
I am comfortable with the general's Schiffchen above and believe it to be the work of Averbeck & Bröskamp. I have an identical one from a Pz uniform set belonging to general Hermann von Hülsen of the 21st Pz Div. This may actually be part of the second Pz uniform set that was auctioned off at the same time back in 1987. I have a set of Schiffchen, wrapper and pants and a friend of mine in Seattle has got the custom-tailored DAK tunic, pants and M40 cap from that auction. There were two identical wrapper sets in the auction, and the one I didn't get came with British capture papers. Richard was telling me he thought he may have located that one, but it was never confirmed, as the seller didn't have much memory of where he got it, etc.
Nick & 90th Light thanks also for that info, The DAK Hulsen uniform set is in good hands. As is the Pz set
Perhaps we should turn to the Generals cap posted above for discussion ?Comment
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It would also seem that Chris' observation about the font used in the CW stamp appears to be correct.
This is what this Forum was designed to do.
Is it, then, fair to say that there is a level of use of a certain type of grommet by a particular manfacturer which is always consistant enough to be relied upon as a defintive guide to whether a piece is, in fact, by a certain manufacturer? Or, as with badges (and this is fought about constantly), were cap makers dependent upon their outside suppliers and certain hardware, while used most of the time by a manufacturer, cannot be considered an absolute definitive guide?Last edited by Leroy; 10-22-2012, 05:16 AM.Comment
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Chris,
Beneficial education on the grommets, very clear pics.
Good effort.
Cheers
ncoComment
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Hello Leroy,Originally posted by Leroy View PostIt would also seem that Chris' observation about the font used in the CW stamp appears to be correct.
This is what this Forum was designed to do.
Is it, then, fair to say that there is a level of use of a certain type of grommet by a particular manfacturer which is always consistant enough to be relied upon as a defintive guide to whether a piece is, in fact, by a certain manufacturer? Or, as with badges (and this is fought about constantly), were cap makers dependent upon their outside suppliers and certain hardware, while used most of the time by a manufacturer, cannot be considered an absolute definitive guide?
the answer to your question is "yes". There are clear and consistent manufacturers footprints to look for in any cap by a certain maker such as "CW". Just like badges. In 95 out of 100 examples this holds up every time.
One of the factors which is misunderstood by collectors today however, is the use of sub-contractors by big brand cap makers in Germany during the war. There is clear evidence that to meet some large orders. Some of the work or component parts were sub-contracted out to meet the the dead-line. Just recently, this was discussed concerning the differences in the placement of a soutache on two Carl Halfar tropical M40's. These two caps were 101% correct in every way but just a bit different from each other in regard to how the soutache was attached at the bottom of the cap. The answer, use of sub-contractors or cottage industry components.
Chris
p.s. another point worth also noting is; In tropical caps, The "Halfar" maker stamps vary for 1940, 1941 and 1942. They seem to have used a different stamp for each year, branch and sub-contractor ???
( This shows a total lack of respect for collectors in the years ahead
)
Last edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 06:57 AM.Comment
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Just to build on what I have said in post number 135 and to show you what I mean. Attached are some images of three "Karl Kubach" caps. Two are black panzer caps and one is a well worn field grey example. Have a look and you will see, two hand applied eagles and one zig zag applied eagle. You will also see the use of an unusual magnetic grommet for "Kubach" and the typical widely spread zinc grommet one usually encounters in cap by "Kubach". Another puzzling point with these Kubachs is that two have a hand sewn lower liner and one is machine sewn.
Why so many differences from the one maker ??? Year and month made during the war ??? , different branches of the same company ??? , Super fakers post war ??? or subcontracting/ cottage industry during the war ???
First up;
Black Pz. "Karl Kubach" with hand applied eagle ( It has been assumed that the eagle on this example is reapplied post war because of its condition. That may or may not be correct but have a look at the application of the eagle in post number 138. The eagle in post 138 is 101% original to the cap as it was brought back by the veteran from WW2 ), regular zinc grommets, hand applied cockade and hand sewn bottom hem of the liner,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 10-22-2012, 07:06 AM.Comment
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