Panzer Headgear Collection-Be Careful

[90th Light]

Well,$4K for an original black panzer/gold piped General officers overseas hat is a real bargain,they are exceedingly rare...I would have thought they would have been snapped up at those prices (I know I would have jumped on one).

Willing to take a gamble?

Glenn

Glenn,

they were not on the site for sale, long enough for anyone to be able to buy them.

I agree, the examples which Richard had are extremely controversial and I agree that such a cap is a very, very rare find indeed if not near to impossible to find an original known example of.

If anyone is going to buy them, then I would like to think that they would do their homework first, a lot of homework. That is exactly what could take place here, right now. Lets analyse them and see just how good or how bad they are.

The quality is impressive so how does it mesure up with other known orginal general officer M38's or even a field officer examples (perhaps even by the same maker).

Then again we may find the very same type of fake out there. Fakers do not always stop at one cap as we all know. Three caps for sale at once may prove this very point. Who are the experts in these to be able to tell us for sure ???

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

Glenn,

they were not on the site for sale, long enough for anyone to be able to buy them.

I agree, the examples which Richard had are extremely controversial and I agree that such a cap is a very, very rare find indeed if not near to impossible to find an original known example of.

If anyone is going to buy them, then I would like to think that they would do their homework first, a lot of homework. That is exactly what could take place here, right now. Lets analyse them and see just how good or how bad they are.

The quality is impressive so how does it mesure up with other known orginal general officer M38's or even a field officer examples (perhaps even by the same maker).

Then again we may find the very same type of fake out there. Fakers do not always stop at one cap as we all know. Three caps for sale at once may prove this very point. Who are the experts in these to be able to tell us for sure ???

Chris

No experts I am afraid...Here is one I own (private purchase) that I have no problems with as far as originality goes.


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=318301





Glenn

[90th Light]

These caps seem to be more common than period photos of General der Panzertruppen wearing such things. As for the General of Sturmgeschutz troops (wrapper)? These units were organized in Abteilungs, Battailons and Brigades often the commanding officer was a Hauptmann but not a higher rank than Major. I believe such a garment to be a "fantasy" item.

Hello OSS,

could he be a general of Panzer Grenadiers or another related service that wore field grey wraps ?

Generals sometimes can be a law to themselves when it comes to the do and don'ts of uniform, within certain boundaries.

Your USA general "Patton", wore a "B3" leather flying jacket but he was as far as I know never a pilot or even in the AAF. The British general "Monty", wore a 2NZEF "Onward" badge on his cap but he never ever served as a soldier/ officer in that division. He wore the 2NZEF badge because he was flamboyant, identified with and had empathy for the troops under his command.

Were German generals any different when came to issues of identity, style and morale ?

Chris

[Leroy]

That is a beautiful piece, Glenn. It is pieces like this which can start the basis for some sort of useful discussion.

Would you by any chance have any private purchase black wraps you could share?

[Glenn McInnes]

Would you by any chance have any private purchase black wraps you could share?

No sorry,I just have the factory produced types.








Glenn

[90th Light]

No experts I am afraid...Here is one I own (private purchase) that I have no problems with as far as originality goes.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=318301

Glenn

Thanks Glenn,

yes I noted that one when you first posted it and I confess, saved the images of it for comparisons in the future.

Adding it again to this thread is very helpful. That is one for sure that I would not need long to make up my mind to buy,

Chris

[OSS]

I must say I like your flatwire BEVO Adler much more than the one on the General's overseas cap. As you said, when they are right they leave you with a positive impression.
















x

[Arran]

No experts I am afraid...Here is one I own (private purchase) that I have no problems with as far as originality goes.


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=318301





Glenn

Well, that's an easy one to love with such an amount of honest wear and age- the difficulty with the subject items is lack of wear. Got to look at materials/components as the final word, as details of construction will vary from maker to maker...

Although, in hand, a mint 70 year old cap is still different from a mint new one of identical construction and materials. There was at least one General's overseas cap among them that I would at least like to have examined in hand before I dismissed it...

[OSS]

Hello OSS,

could he be a general of Panzer Grenadiers or another related service that wore field grey wraps ?

Generals sometimes can be a law to themselves when it comes to the do and don'ts of uniform, within certain boundaries.

Your USA general "Patton", wore a "B3" leather flying jacket but he was as far as I know never a pilot or even in the AAF. The British general "Monty", wore a 2NZEF "Onward" badge on his cap but he never ever served as a soldier/ officer in that division. He wore the 2NZEF badge because he was flamboyant, identified with and had empathy for the troops under his command.

Were German generals any different when came to issues of identity, style and morale ?

Chris

Yes Chris, of course anything is possible and senior officer's sometimes wore ideosyncratic garb (the distinctive all feldgrau Italian made tunic and General's M-42 cap worn by Friedelin von Senger und Etterlin comes to mind). However, the black service uniform was intended to be worn only by troops serving in (enclosed) armored vehicles, these personnel rarely exceeded the rank of Major (I have seen regimental commanders doing so). General officer's are almost never seen departing from the standard General's attire and anyone looking to collect variations of black Generals overseas caps are inviting problems IMO.

[OSS]

And before you point out the exceptions to this rule, allow me to suggest General Adalbert Schulz:

[Leroy]

...or Sepp Dietrich, or Hasso von Manteufel, or Guderian or others. But still, you are right and such pieces would be extraordinarily rare and almost impossible to locate for anything other than a premium price (and would almost certainly have surrounding documentation).

[OSS]

And I should mention Generalmajor von Hunersdorff (on right) who wore regular skull tabs on his panzer wrap. His panzer overseas has a metal schirmutze eagle (presumeably gold). While these caps existed, they are ridiculously rare and each one made to order so there is no way to prove to everyone's satisfaction that they are fakes. You have to judge for yourself. The issue caps pictured on the Bruce Hermann site are another story.

[90th Light]

Yes Chris, of course anything is possible and senior officer's sometimes wore ideosyncratic garb (the distinctive all feldgrau Italian made tunic and General's M-42 cap worn by Friedelin von Senger und Etterlin comes to mind). However, the black service uniform was intended to be worn only by troops serving in (enclosed) armored vehicles, these personnel rarely exceeded the rank of Major (I have seen regimental commanders doing so). General officer's are almost never seen departing from the standard General's attire and anyone looking to collect variations of black Generals overseas caps are inviting problems IMO.

Thank You OSS,

you have taken on board the point that I was trying to make about a possible "ideosyncrasy" by a general. Just as I have taken on board, the point you made about how a field grey generals wrap is almost impossible.

The point I would now like to make however, the wrap was suppose to be service dress only while operating a vehicle. This as we know was not the case and due to its aesthetically pleasing appearance and symbol of "espirit de corps, it was worn as a walking out dress, Sunday best and on parade.

I have seen black panzer uniforms found with veterans and families in Germany which had not been worn in combat. Instead, they had been left/ kept in Germany to be worn while home on leave or attending official ceromonies.

This brings me also to the cap that Generalmajor von Hunersdorff is wearing in the excellent photo that you have shown in post number 42. This general is in the field (combat ?). How much attention would he want to bring to himself ? Russian/ allied snipers were well known for their abilities to shoot shinny German officers. What sort panzer sidecap/ wrap might he have had back in Germany to wear during his duties and meetings there ?

Having said this, I do agree that the black panzer sidecap of a general in any condition would be an extremely rare find. In fact almost off the radar,

Chris

[Zauberflöte]

I'm very sorry to intervene, but now we are doing it again. Thinking in possibilities, hypothetical situations etc etc...10 pages further this discussion will not have changed and /or proven any of the items a definite fake or real. Either you like them now or you don't, this will not -or should not- have changed by this.

Actually I do recall of one General at least I know of wearing a custom made field grey wrap, I believe with a dark green added collar and he was a RK recipient. Believe the photo was taken in 1945 and I will try to locate it.
But this is not the point, the point is; will any of the subject items stand the test of comfort, regardless if they could have been worn/period made or not? I own and have seen several non-textbook/non-standard garments that would convince any scepticus in a heart beat.

Only one example from what I have seen from the caps shown, I would not immediately dismiss. But if we start to discuss in this manor, than i can start by bringing up a dozen more items currently floating the numerous dealer sites.

We decided to focus on the caps, regardless the former owner or dealer that brought them on. Then I ask you, is there enough to go on to make this discussion stand and do the caps justice for that matter?

F.

[Zauberflöte]

Here he is: Generalltnt. Kurt Frhr. von Mühlen in his privately tailored wrap.