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    #46
    Chaplain again. I dont know about the hat, but pot metal insignia. With the flash, this looks more General Staff than chapain. I would expect a darker hue to the piping. Not purple mind you, but more Bordeaux. Again, dont just a book by its cover. I can just tell you the insignia is bullion, the cross is pot metal, and they are squished.

    Now what if this cap was 100% but replaced insignia. My personal belief....who cares. You have a real chaplain's hat, one of probably 1500 to exist during WWII. Most hats would have had some de nazification to them. A real hat is a real hat. A restored chaplain hat is still much rarer than a Cav, Signal, General staff hat and should be the pride of a Heer collection
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      #47
      Chris, I applaud you--one of the best (and most informative) threads I have read in a long time. I have had a number of Chappy visors sent to me for inspection, and every one of them was a high-end fake (& almost all with the zinc/pot-metal crosses).

      Terrific job....
      NEC SOLI CEDIT

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        #48
        Here is one I never liked from the day I first saw it--a Chappy with the one-piece insignia from the 1981 Shutt book:
        Attached Files
        NEC SOLI CEDIT

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          #49
          Very interesting thread. Do we know why they didn't wear shoulder boards, and how they distinguished rank?

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            #50
            from http://german-history.deviantart.com...ains-322796008

            Chaplains of the German army did not wear shoulder boards. The reasoning behind this was to keep them level with the men they served despite their officers ranking.

            Chaplains within the structure of the Third Reich were regarded as officers. They all held the rank of "Major" in theory, although their official title varied from Pfarrer, to Kaplan, to Geistlicher to Kreigspfarrer to anything else of the type when down on paper.

            Some interesting information on that site

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              #51
              Chris, this is one hell of a thread! Please keep up the good work!

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                #52
                Great info thanks.

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                  #53
                  Fantastic thread, very educative information, many thanks!

                  Sam,

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                    #54
                    Great info and thread, well done Chris.

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                      #55
                      This thread should really be pinned! Thanks Chris!

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by stonemint View Post
                        Here is one I never liked from the day I first saw it--a Chappy with the one-piece insignia from the 1981 Shutt book:
                        Thank you so much guys for the response. I want to continue this all this week with more hats, uniforms, and crosses hopefully.

                        I never liked that one either. The one piece construction has been around for a while, and it never has been good. George Petersen told me there was a large group of repro insignia made in France during the late 60's and 70's. He told me there was many chaplain items made during that time, her personally seeing the visor insignia, navy tabs, and navy bishops tabs (we'll get to those later). The problem at that time (around 2000) is these insignias had now been around for over 30 - 40 years. They had age, and were being placed on hats.

                        Now my question was always WHY?? Why do we see the same crosses and same style visor insignia over and over? Honestly, I think it all had to do with what was available to the fakers, and what they had to do to re-tool their sewing machines.

                        my theory, they had a photo or two of a Navy chaplain with 2nd type bullion insignia, and a one piece bullion visor insignia. The fakers in the 70's decided to make a Heer version of the same insignia they saw in the Navy photo. Hence, we have a one piece wreath/cross construction, dating from the 70's, which never existed on Army caps. Having nothing else to go on, the early book writers used these insignia as a base to form their ideas on. Hence, these insignia are now in books like Angolia's , Shutt's, and many others. The authors didnt have the internet, forums, of a large photo archive. They went with what they had, hence the mistakes.

                        Case in point, compare the hat you posted, with the insignia here. These insignia were used in Angolia's Uniforms of the German Army vol II, and Mark Hayden's book on German Chaplains. (I had the original photo, and I cant find it again, we have to do with a scan here). Looks at the one piece constructions. The same insigna in this photo is in Shutt's book.
                        --look at the top cross, the sloppy work,,,,just crap.

                        ---these were photographed by Schlicht for his personal archives. I personally believe they are all fakes. Fakes meant to decieve collectors, and they have been for years. Thankfully, the fakers of a more modern nature have been reproducting these faster than what would be "right".


                        (German Military Chaplains, Mark Hayden, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, PA, 2005 pg 98)
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                        Last edited by Chris Liontass; 09-03-2012, 10:42 AM.

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                          #57
                          Compare Shutt's hat with two real hats on two period chaplains. The first one was from Robert Noss' collection and had his prayer book with it. He was a Russian front assigned chaplain. Look at the high vaulted visor, with well spaced metal insignia. There is no question that the insignia is a nice silver wash, not Zinc. The more we see of good photos, the more the zinc cross appears to be a restrick or cast.

                          The second, another chaplain with no cross, but all metal insignia. The chaplain didnt have to have a cross, but you still see the vast majority of chaplains with metal insignia. It is rare to even see a bullion eagle.


                          (German Military Chaplains, Mark Hayden, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, PA, 2005 pg 86-87)
                          Attached Files
                          Last edited by Chris Liontass; 09-03-2012, 10:42 AM.

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by ErichK View Post
                            This thread should really be pinned! Thanks Chris!
                            Thats my imo toogreat work Chris

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                              #59
                              Another bad hat. One made to fake out collectors (I think)

                              --the eagle and cross are spaced....but what kind of cross is that??? It is done in the pre war style and dimentions. Look at the huge thread spaceing...it doesnt look fine at all. Looking at this cross, it resembles the type of crosses that were faked. It also does not sit into the fabric at all. All bullion insignia...and poorly done at that, does not give me a warm feeling. Additionally, the piping looks ok, so we may have a good hat with re sewn insignia, or a rebuild (which is likely)
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                                #60
                                The look I think they were going for. Again, this cap would be unique in the military at the time. However, look at the cross on the chaplain's uniform (and that piped service jacket...NICE!!! I would have killed for one of those. ) Look how the cross sits into the fabric on the real hat, and how it sits on the fabric on the other hat. NTZ and Stonemint went over and over that with me. After looking at enough real photos, you being to see what they are talking about
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