SS M43 Panzer Cap

[BenVK]

Up next are these Ukrainian guys.

1 and 2 button caps plus look at all the different insignia including Pz traps.

[Jeff V]

I have always said that looking at period photos will show there are a whole lot of "different" original ss items that would be declared fake without a second look. Unfortunately, with all the massive faking going on, I can see why this happens. IMO the only way to find a common ground between non "textbook" items and fakes the hobby has to do a better job with the discussions of these items.

[Glenn McInnes]

The black trap ones are the Dachau types and if I remember correct were meant for issue to Foreign Volunteers.









Glenn

[BenVK]

The purpose of me posting these images is not to show that were many non "textbook" configurations of these caps. Of course they were, just like everything else in the TR.

No, the reason why I'm posting them as I find them is to question whether our time lines are accurate or not.

In other words, I'm suggesting that just because it has a Trap sewn on it doesn't necessarily mean that a cap was manufactured later than a cap with separate skull and eagle and vica versa.

The more I research into this, the more I'm convinced that the SS Bekleidungswerke whether it be at Dachau, Ravensbruck or their many sub-camps, simply applied the insignia they had in stock at the time.

I know we all like to categorize and date items so that we can put them into neat little boxes but I believe that's a mistake.

[Fred Fokkelman]

Thanks Ben for posting these images and starting a discussion on this subject. I think you're right about applying the insignia they had in stock at the moment.... makes sense to me looking at many images.
Perhaps we need to think a bit more out of the box regarding these caps without getting paranoid. But that's not easy.

[Fred Fokkelman]

I almost forgot, why don't we see these anomaly's with side-caps are visor caps?

[cossack1648]

The purpose of me posting these images is not to show that were many non "textbook" configurations of these caps. Of course they were, just like everything else in the TR.

No, the reason why I'm posting them as I find them is to question whether our time lines are accurate or not.

In other words, I'm suggesting that just because it has a Trap sewn on it doesn't necessarily mean that a cap was manufactured later than a cap with separate skull and eagle and vica versa.

The more I research into this, the more I'm convinced that the SS Bekleidungswerke whether it be at Dachau, Ravensbruck or their many sub-camps, simply applied the insignia they had in stock at the time.

I know we all like to categorize and date items so that we can put them into neat little boxes but I believe that's a mistake.

Same was done in firearms production. It is very common to find later rifles or pistols assembled using some earlier parts that were still in stock at the factory. For example walnut stocks in '45 rifles and other parts.

Jack

[90th Light]

Excellent to see a renewed interest in this thread,

I have posted these images on the current thread about HBT lined SS M43 caps. Better also add them here for the record.

A lot has happened since this thread started and my research has continued to this day. Here is an example, this is one of the black SS M43 cap with HBT liner that was declared wrong/ bad/ fake/ on this thread. I was told that the HBT liner was post-war HBT and all wrong.


What I started doing was buying up accepted caps with HBT liner at the right prices and making a detailed study of them. For example, I purchased this 1945 dated LW M43 which was declared original, nice, one looker here on WAF. See these threads,

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...M43+field+caps (see cap number 3, the LW cap I am showing here )

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=199965 (see post numbers 372 to 379 for other 1945 LW examples by this maker)


When I got it home, I thought I have seen that type of HBT before. Bingo, an exact match for my SS M43 cap except for the colour. Of course the colour difference between the 2 caps is explainable, SS verses LW.

I took the caps down to the cloth scientists at the university and asked them to have a look, plus analyse what they are made of. The 2 HBT's match in every way. They magnified it, same artifical silk/ rayon blend. Same thread count to the weave of the cloth, just like you would do on a KC ribbon. Woven with thread measuring the exact same gauge. The cloth these two HBT liners are made from, could have been made in the same factory.

It got even better after that because I found were the manufacturer of my SS M43 was located during WW2 (the LW cap maker is already well known). That is real break through in understanding this type of M43 cap. Plus I have the chain of ownership of the SS Panzer M43 cap since 1971.

These 2 M43 caps with HBT liner were made at different factories in the Third Reich but those factories appear to have possibly sourced the HBT for the liners from the same WW2 manufacturer. This finding leans a lot more towards objective war-time artificial silk/ rayon than subjective post-war nylon.

My study, research, fascination and findings with this subject is ongoing. I take on board all opinions, advise and experience offered from more than one source then I arrived at a conclusion. From time to time, this process and conclusions have to be reviewed. More information comes to light. WAF is a very valuable starting point and reference in this process but not the last/ final word,

Chris

[BenVK]

I've seen this image before of the cap with the Pz beret skull but didn't pay much attention to the shape of the flap behind the buttons until now.

So now we have 3 caps of similar design with 3 different types of insignia.

Does anyone know if any beret insignia was found at Dachau?

[BenVK]

I almost forgot, why don't we see these anomaly's with side-caps are visor caps?

We can take visor caps out of the equation because I highly doubt any were made in camp system. It takes a whole different level of skill and machinery to make a visor cap.

Side caps are another question though and I don't know the answer to that.

[BenVK]

Chris, it's my understanding that the HBT fabrics were manufactured in Italy.

[billbert]

I would mention after seeing quite a few groups shopped at Dachau that I’ve do not recall beret skulls among the booty...BILLBERT

[90th Light]

Chris, it's my understanding that the HBT fabrics were manufactured in Italy.

Ben, there was a lot of discussion about HBT, the types and where they were made during the "Pink/Brick/Birch Smock" threads/ debates. It is probably worth reading what is written there for anyone one with the time/ motivation to wade through all those threads on that subject.

Basically, the HBT's used during WW2 are not unique to being made only in Italy. For example, I have Czech caps with Czech army stamps, confiscated by the Germans in 1938 with HBT linings. These have been WH reissued during WW2 and NZ vet brought back from Italy in 1945.

HBT was made in more than one country under Third Reich control and including Germany itself. Then there are other axis countries such as Croatia

The challenges are which HBT's were made before WW2, during WW2 and after WW2 ? The gauge/ texture of the thread used to weave the HBT and what exactly the thread is made/ blended from ?

The Rayon/ Artificial-silk blended HBT used on the 2 caps I have shown in post number 383, seems to now be viewed as German made HBT on other WAF threads. It will be interesting to see what others think on this thread,

Chris

[BenVK]

Here's some Czechoslovakian HBT

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...=811795&page=4

I thought the consensus is that the HBT materials in the SS Bekleidungswerke made items is of Italian origin.

Is that not correct then?

[Fred Fokkelman]

Interesting. A pity we can’t ask Oswald Pohl.

Did some documentation survive the war?