Panzer M-43 Cap

[B. N. Singer]

I agree totally Ben...sometimes we all need to look outside of our comfort zone,

Chris

Not me, I am a big chicken s**t! The ONLY place I want to be is smack dab within my comfort zone.

B. N. Singer

[RobertE]

Perhaps Robert could post an image of the outside of the cap with the flaps pulled down to confirm if the stitching is there or not

Chris, here you go. I think treating manufacturers variations as anomolies based on our relatively small collective knowledge is a way to dismiss good pieces. This cap has no visible manufacturers' markings, so determining originality based on the number of thread lines seems a apple and orange approach.

I have original caps with no external liner stitching, one line, and those shown with two. All are original.

regards, Robert

[RobertE]

The wear on this piece is very convincing in hand. The slick and shiney sweat and hair oil sheen on these nylon liners is almost impossible to replicate, and the minute wear places where a short hair cut (back and sides) show through in the right places.

[90th Light]

Not me, I am a big chicken s**t! The ONLY place I want to be is smack dab within my comfort zone.

B. N. Singer

the virtue of arch-conservatism and all that follows,

Chris

[90th Light]

Perhaps Robert could post an image of the outside of the cap with the flaps pulled down to confirm if the stitching is there or not

Chris, here you go. I think treating manufacturers variations as anomolies based on our relatively small collective knowledge is a way to dismiss good pieces. This cap has no visible manufacturers' markings, so determining originality based on the number of thread lines seems a apple and orange approach.

I have original caps with no external liner stitching, one line, and those shown with two. All are original.

regards, Robert

Hello Robert, the more I see the more I like and based on these additional images I now feel that your one has every chance of being by the same manufacturer as the Luca's cap provided in the link attached to post number 16.

I agree with you about the possible range of variations on originals.

You appear to have done your homework Robert so it would be helpful if those who first rejected this can elaborate on their reasons,

Chris

p.s. could you also put up a clearer image of the reverse of the flap behind the buttons because I think we will again see a match with Luca's cap

[John Huff]

Not me, I am a big chicken s**t! The ONLY place I want to be is smack dab within my comfort zone.

B. N. Singer

On this type of hat, I wanna be right there also!

[PaulMann]

interesting

,,although only a student, I like your black cap.
cheers

[Raven26]

Not me, I am a big chicken s**t! The ONLY place I want to be is smack dab within my comfort zone.

B. N. Singer

Agreed.

Best wishes on everyones collecting.

[RobertE]

p.s. could you also put up a clearer image of the reverse of the flap behind the buttons because I think we will again see a match with Luca's cap

Chris, here's the shot of the reverse - it is identical to Luca's. I think these caps are identical: white bias tape in the folds, double lines of flap stitching, single liner retaining stitch, liner material and size stamps are the same - no difference.

Other than the fact that these are rare as hens teeth, I would welcome specifics - in open discussion or PM - on why this cap is bad.

In short, since this cap is identical to Luca's, which met with rave reviews, it is well within my comfort zone. Again, if folks see measurable differences, feel free to point them out.

Regards, Robert

[90th Light]

p.s. could you also put up a clearer image of the reverse of the flap behind the buttons because I think we will again see a match with Luca's cap

Chris, here's the shot of the reverse - it is identical to Luca's. I think these caps are identical: white bias tape in the folds, double lines of flap stitching, single liner retaining stitch, liner material and size stamps are the same - no difference.

Other than the fact that these are rare as hens teeth, I would welcome specifics - in open discussion or PM - on why this cap is bad.

In short, since this cap is identical to Luca's, which met with rave reviews, it is well within my comfort zone. Again, if folks see measurable differences, feel free to point them out.

Regards, Robert

Robert you are correct, the more I see the more I too believe that this is in fact the same maker as the manufacturer of Luca's cap (ref. post number 16) and as such is an original cap.

The next thing to post a close up image of is the size number and perhaps Luca could post a better image of his but I bet you ten to one that the style of font on those numbers is a match

Luca knows his caps and nobody had any issues at all with his example, in fact quite the opposite so why is his so good and yours so wrong ????

Heaven forbid for me to suggest this but have some made an initial wrong call about your cap ? May be because the images were not clear enough at the start and perhaps now with the benefit of the increasing number of images which you are posting they might be good enough to share any concerns they have or in fact go back and review their decision. This would be the response of a decent man.

I now wait to see the outcome of this,

Chris

[BenVK]

I'm just going on the photos and thinking out aloud here so don't shoot me.

Robert's and Luca's caps seem to be identical apart from the buttons and size obviously. You could argue that that is a good thing. Consistency in manufacture from one maker. However, the almost identical staining to the linings does make one wonder. 2 rare caps, same staining? no rips or tears, moth damage to seperate them? ...hmmm

Also, although I didn't notice it about Luca's cap at the time, the stitching of the insignia on both caps also worries me. Take a look. Not all period machine sewing is the same, granted, but the long stitch and lack of tension is evident. Badges on both caps haven't "sunk" into the wool at all really have they?

Some people are going to, so what? Insignia may not be original to the cap but the cap may be original anyway. True, but if the insignia is machine sewn but is not authentic sewing and the lining hasn't been opened up, there can only be one conclusion: fake made from the ground up.

[BenVK]

Ok, I know I'm now showing "T -birds" but that shouldn't make any difference. Look at the weight and tension of the sewing.

[BenVK]

I found another of Glenn's caps (He's got hundreds! ) that is more similar to the weight of stitch on Robert and Luca's caps but there is an obvious difference. I won't say anymore, already said too much probably.

[BenVK]

if the insignia is machine sewn but is not authentic sewing and the lining hasn't been opened up, there can only be one conclusion: fake made from the ground up.

Just want to clarify what I said before I get into trouble here.

It's very difficult to tell sometimes if it's truly machine sewn or hand done to mimic machine sewing.

So, what I'm saying is can we be certain that the sewing on Robert and Luca's caps are, actualy machine done?

[90th Light]

Just want to clarify what I said before I get into trouble here.

It's very difficult to tell sometimes if it's truly machine sewn or hand done to mimic machine sewing.

So, what I'm saying is can we be certain that the sewing on Robert and Luca's caps are, actualy machine done?

Far from shooting you down Ben, you are to be commended for being prepared to expand on some of your concerns. I am sure that Robert appreciates it because it is he who has the most at stake here.

Now I will expand a bit on my experience/ thoughts; we seem to keep using a "T-form" panzer trap as the reference for Roberts trap which is not T-form. Are we not in fact conparing 1943/44 production with 1944/45 production by doing that.

and// (there is always an "and")

if one reads some of what Speer wrote in his reports of 1944, a year surprisingly that Germany actually increased its economic growth and finally reached the extent of their production possibility curve which is what should have happened in 1940,

he reported far greater use of manual powered sewing machines and cottage industry for the clothing industry among others. The reasons for this he stated were growing electricity and steam powered shortages plus inconsistancy of supply of these and growing difficulties in re-establishing them in some parts of the Reich. Also cottage industry greatly spread out sources of supply for components and tapped into a greater numbers of suppliers.

To sum up what this means; we have three possible stiches on traps in the period of 1944/45 which is when in my opinion Luca's and Roberts caps were made;

1/ powered sewing machines either by electricity or some other generated means

2/ Foot powered via treadle power of foot or animal

3/ Hand sewing via seamstress or cottage worker

I am noting what you are saying Ben and trying to build on it. What would be helpful would to now compare with more Panzer "Traps" of the non-T-form type and see what which of numbers 1 to 3 above they reflect,

Chris