Panzer M-43 Cap

[B. N. Singer]

... the more I see the more I too believe that this is in fact the same maker as the manufacturer of Luca's cap...

Heaven forbid for me to suggest this but have some made an initial wrong call about your cap ? ...in fact go back and review their decision. This would be the response of a decent man.

I now wait to see the outcome of this,

Chris

You should be threading this “reasoning” backwards fellow. Ben seems to have.
B. N. Singer

[RobertE]

It's very difficult to tell sometimes if it's truly machine sewn or hand done to mimic machine sewing.

Ben, this is a valid area to consider. The spacing and orientation of the thread is hard for restorers to get correctly, and even an accomplished seamstress gets stitches of differing lengths and usually with excessive gaps between the stitches. They have to sew it from the top. If bobbin thread was actually present under the insignia, the stitches would be evenly spaced and in a straight line, not canted.

The "T" insignia have a much thinner background because they lack the thicker padded area the bevo birds are woven into: it is only one ply, so to speak. An actual trapezoid is thicker, and doesn't always pull down into the wool. Such is the case, I believe, with the traps on Lucas' and my trap.

Other factors, such as universal "greying" to the threads when compared to those hidden from sunlight, come into play. In the case of mine, the threads holding the trap to the cap are the same stitch length and color.

By the way, Glenn's M43 with the trap shown in your last pics used to be mine!

regards, Robert

[BenVK]

I'm just asking whether we think that the insignia sewing on these Pz caps is original pre 45? Based on the fact that many of us are of split opinion whether the caps themselves are original, I thought. it might be useful to take one aspect that we all look for in an M43, i.e. original factory machine sewn insignia and apply it here.
If we can ascertain that yes, we are happy to conisder the application of the insignia to be authentic, then the chances of the cap being authentic have just increased to the point of being undeniable. In other words, how do you transplant an original machine sewn badge into a fake cap?

[BenVK]

It's very difficult to tell sometimes if it's truly machine sewn or hand done to mimic machine sewing.

Ben, this is a valid area to consider. The spacing and orientation of the thread is hard for restorers to get correctly, and even an accomplished seamstress gets stitches of differing lengths and usually with excessive gaps between the stitches.

Very true Robert. I would consider myself pretty decent with sewing needle but trying to mimic machine sewing by hand is very, very difficult. I wouldn't have been able to sew the trap on your cap by hand as good as this. Not saying it's impossible though by any means.

[BenVK]

Another point I'm going to throw out there is that it's more than likely that a batch run of good fake Pz caps hittng the market in the past would have been noticed by the guys who have been in the hobby for a long time. Unfortunately, those collecters who know don't want to educate the modern generation. Take the Halfar Pz M43's for example, I got more private tip offs than an episode of Kojak but no one could or wanted to go on the record.

I don't know about anyone else but if I knew for sure that these caps were fake, I would say so and never mind who it p1ssed off.

[90th Light]

You should be threading this “reasoning” backwards fellow. Ben seems to have.
B. N. Singer

As always Mr Singer, good advice and I take note because when one rattles cage of a comfort zone one can risk awakening the sleeping tiger within us all.

When the Tiger roars the jungles goes silent as it listens carefully for where the tiger will emerge.

We all await the roar of both your experience and wisdom in this matter,

Chris

[RobertE]

Good discussion so far. I hope I haven't dragged Luca's cap into disgrace through comparison. I think this is where we are about now:

- the cap itself is likely good

- the trap application needs to be investigated further

For me, this is not about being right or wrong. It may be possible to agree as a group as to whether this M43 is a good one, or we may just have some aspects presented we hadn't thought of before and go our seperate ways.

I appreciate all inputs, gents.

regards, Robert

[90th Light]

Another point I'm going to throw out there is that it's more than likely that a batch run of good fake Pz caps hittng the market in the past would have been noticed by the guys who have been in the hobby for a long time. Unfortunately, those collecters who know don't want to educate the modern generation. Take the Halfar Pz M43's for example, I got more private tip offs than an episode of Kojak but no one could or wanted to go on the record.

I don't know about anyone else but if I knew for sure that these caps were fake, I would say so and never mind who it p1ssed off.

Hello Ben

No one can prove if the Halfar Panzer M43's were an up-market bunch of fakes hitting the market or a true Russian hoard found after the Berlin wall came down. If they could have proved it was a bunch of fakes then they would have come forward and not hidden in shadows with what they knew they could prove. Most could only repeat hearsay and in many cases they could not even remember who first said it but away it went like a chinese whisper.

The biggest thing against the Halfar's apart from the now famous "tea-towel lining" description was the fact that no advanced North American collector had ever seen one before but on the other hand there are the advanced European collectors who were there when they were first offered from one of the Russian finds of the golden period of 1989 to 1994 before the Russians went mad with what we were prepared to pay and they have no trouble with them what so ever. Now who does a poor Kiwi boy believe (ps leaving out the Russian triangle stamp which some caps had and some did not so that could have been added after they were found).

Coming back to the the cap which started this thread, two more things at this stage

1/ White bias or reinforcement material is not accepted by certain collectors in an M43 because they believe that it is only found in reproductions. Seemingly also green, olive green or olive brown is not good as well. I suppose orange and purple are just fine then. Personally I think this is just one big collector myth, the Germans used what ever color they had on hand at the time and wasted nothing. Sure someone may have copied white but it was white in an original from the period which was copied.

2/ What impact does washing a cap, dry cleaning or storage have on how the badge settles into the cap ? I mean store it flat with a ton of stuff on top of it and it will look different to one stored in shape. Wash it and it will look cleaner and newer than one not washed. Steam it and the whole shape, profile and nap will lift. Iron it and the badge will go very flat. Over iron it and you can make it look very worn.

Again Ben thank you for your input, this is turning out to be a useful thread,

Chris

[Richard P]

I usually stay out of the "M-43" discussions since there is already a vociferous plethora of aficionados.

I will however weigh in on Ben's trapezoid stitching/sewing subject. I agree with his observations as to length of stitch varieties, tension or pull on the insignia varies from the snugged down tight, to the loosely held on. Everything he has mentioned can also be adjusted on each machine, according to skill or preference. The size or diameter of the thread does require a tension adjustment for each size. The stitch length is also at the discretion of the tailor/seamstress in combination with the tension. Thickness of layers also change the stitch length if your sewing multiple thicknesses without making adjustments to compensate. The varieties can be as numerous as the objects sewn.

Tension can loosen somewhat on its own if sewing for hours long shifts. Stitch length can change if a new spool is a lighter weight than the previous thread, and the change is not compensated for. My whole point is the insignia on any of these caps could have been sewn on by the new comer given the easiest of tasks, or a pro who has done thousands. The newbie could have sewed 30 cap traps loosely tensioned, and someone spotted them and gave the tension knob a 1 to 2mm adjustment, and the next 100 would have been tight as a drum.

The sewing variables of insignia are endless, and there is no way to tell for certain. If it's machine sewn, then it is done when assembled, or if the seam has been opened and the insignia added, you must still judge the base caps themselves. Most of this applies to uniforms too.

Richard

[sonderverband]

"I usually stay out of the "M-43" discussions since there is already a vociferous plethora of aficionados."

Ha! Self-proclaimed ones. A few guys here I trust and others who are just the loudest don't mean they know what they are shouting about.

You can't trust the forums. You need to own real pieces and THEN you know.

[90th Light]

"I usually stay out of the "M-43" discussions since there is already a vociferous plethora of aficionados."

Ha! Self-proclaimed ones. A few guys here I trust and others who are just the loudest don't mean they know what they are shouting about.

You can't trust the forums. You need to own real pieces and THEN you know.

.......and thus they gathered and they pondered because for the first time in their lives they realised there were in fact other planets in the galaxy,

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

......You need to own real pieces and THEN you know.

Conventional logic might suggest that but it aint always so.

B. N. Singer

[Bond]

You can't trust the forums. You need to own real pieces and THEN you know.

Hopefully this is true, but maybe not always.

Jerry

[BenVK]

Most could only repeat hearsay and in many cases they could not even remember who first said it but away it went like a chinese whisper.

Very true Chris. Difficult to know who to believe in situations like that.

[Luca Ongaro]

This is the first time I see this thread, I am very busy in this time
Very interesting observations Ben, good work
Always a pleasure to read explanations like yours and Chris's.
The cap posted by Robert is an original example IMO, the same maker but in different wool and buttons.
The cap I have has a solid story behind you can believe me or not, I do not convice you is original, just my experience and I am very happy to have it in my collection.
Robert, if you have that cap in your hands you know what I mean.
Luca