Originally posted by 90th Light
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Regards,
John
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Correct beyond argument Chris. This should not have happened and I hope an apology is forthcoming.
Regards,
JohnEsse Quam Videri -
As you might imagine, could not disagree more Leroy.Originally posted by Leroy View Post
Many, including most nefarious militaria "creators," simply do not have an eye for, or take the time to study, detail. You want evidence? This forum and all the threads on it that began with, "is this real?" In just jump helmets on ebay alone, the threads are immense, and the helmets in question are beyond any doubt fake to anyone who studies detail. The same can be said for jump smocks, jump badges, jump boots, jump trousers, and this is only considering a sampling of Fj. The same goes for the whole of WAF. Why are all the questions to these threads answered by the same members every time? Because they know and have studied authentic examples. This, not vetting every generation of endless fakes, is the only way to know good militaria.
Regards,
JohnLast edited by John Hodgin; 06-05-2009, 06:15 AM.Esse Quam VideriComment
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John,Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post
Not talking about the "run of the mill" fakers, about whom your statement is probably correct. These people just want something that looks "close". But don't kid yourself, people like Floch, the fellow from HSC, etc., DO know detail and correct construction, but don't want to spend the money to go that far, at least for most of their items. They are perfectly capable, knowledge-wise, to go that extra step. Only cost prohibits it and, even then, in the uniform field, I suspect that it HAS been done. (Read the recent thread on the Waffen-SS stug jacket to see how good it gets. Tripped up, more than anything else, by the use of bad insignia, because the real stuff was too expensive.)
Regards,
LeroyComment
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hello,
althought i prefer to stay on the item discussion,
i wish to make few comments about previous exchanges of different points of wiew on "to take the risk to help fakers by giving to much details".
both opinions about this point have good reasons.
most collectors who try to purchase rare or/and pricey items (logicaly heavyly faked) just don't have enought knowledge about their quest, otherwise they wouldn't have to ask opinions; they should do their own homework before.
i can understand that those "who know" don't want to give details, and help those "lazy" ignorant collectors or fakers.
but i can understand too that to snipe an item just saying "fake" without any explaination might reflects a contradiction with goals of this forum, ie sharing knowledge and help each other for happy collecting.
when someone considers himself able to give a comment about an item's authenticity, and wants to do so, it is always possible not to tell everything and to keep some "tips", or to share some particular points only by pm.
but there are advanced fakers, as Leroy pointed, who don't need any help;
some of them are advanced collectors themselves.
imho only those are realy dangerous for the hobby, as their "production" of realy hight end fakery is very small.
derkaComment
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_________________Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post
I do think fakers can afford to buy a original cap from Gerhard if they really want to know what the differences are. It is just the matter that they want to save money and maximize profit so they will more or less never get it right. There is no idea not to tell what is the difference between a original and a not original cap, well IMO anyhow.
Cheers
LasseComment
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______________________Originally posted by 90th Light View Post
Chris,
The problem here is that you discuss with guys only accepting "textbook" items as originals, and that means textbook items they have seen. Everything else is not original in their mind. It is nothing wrong with that, usually saves a collector a lot of money.
You need to find people more broadminded to discuss anomalities or which may be original but not textbook, probably collectors who have been traveling around the world a bit more finding items made where US vets have not been and brought backitems. What many misses is that more then 60% of the items during WW2 where manufactured in areas of Europe no US solder ever sat their foot and hence only could bring back from a division bringing it back from east, most where though refitted with new items when returning to fight in the west, and then also refitted on the western front naturally with items manufactured there.
As long as you discuss that with the "textbook" guys you will just be irritated and angry as well as they will be with you and the discussion will lead no where.
From photos we know there are many items which are not textbook which certainly was manufactured but would be discounted as fakes on a forum. I do fully understand that though as most collectors can not afford collecting anything outside the "textbook" area. I don´t say you are wrong or the "textbook" guys are, everyone have to collect to their own mind, in the end it is the collectors money which are spent, and he can spend it how ever he want.
What is sure though is that the "textbook" items allways will be easier to sell and they will allways bring better money!!
Cheers
LasseComment
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As always, a discussion about fakes is always more interesting than about any one look original. Of course it is. What is there to discuss about an obvious original besides saying oooo, nice cap, tunic, badge etc?
However, I've never agreed with the attitude that we shouldn't go into details because those nasty fakers will be reading this and perfecting their skills.
To be brutal, that's bollocks basically IMO.
The positive advantage of educating collectors far outweighs the negative advantage of educating the fakers IMO. Let them do their best to fool us and we will flag their attempts here on the forum or within our community. In the past, no record like this was ever made because the huge database that is the internet wasn't invented, so the older fakes still surface now and again and sometimes we are dubious but not 100% sure because the opinions of collectors who knew that they were bad back in the day were never recorded and therefore lost to a large degree. That's unless one of them comes along nowadays and says, Oh yeah, I remember such an such selling these fakes in the 70's or whenever. For the younger guys like me, that is information worth listening to but the irony is that because it's all just hearsay with no pictures, no recorded discussion, no analysis and therefore no proof (after all, don't buy the story and that includes not only the sellers but the collectors who did the inspections) so no wonder in this day and age, we now have collectors looking at everything with fresh eyes and not willing to believe all that they've been told.
That's why I will always be on the side of people who don't follow the herd or take everything that they've been told as fact. Studying the Third Reich is all about anomalies. There is not much about any of it that could be labeled as textbook and collecting by those standards is completely missing the point. Just as much as trying to bully anyone to collect by those same standards is also missing the point.
You know, how many posts has there been about Gerard being a great dealer? lots, but that misses the point again by a country mile. Gerard IS
one of the best dealers without doubt. Gerard, I'm talking to you directly now in an attempt to get past all this bitching back and forth. We, I, respect you as a dealer of Military Collectables but an authority of the Third Reich and it's history and everything that goes along with it, you are not. So, with respect, I'm asking you to judge people with a different point of view to your own with a bit of respect? Because I tell you, calling somone a moron is totaly out of order and if I were Chris, I wouldn't have been so gentle about it.Comment
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Lasse , I agree with you that non text book items were found and were produced as is proof in many period pictures. However the vast majority of the the non textbook items were the result of field taylored items and modifications, individual and fashion inspired preferences, and foreign made or procured items. It is highly unlikely that items produced by the bigger and official manufactures would be "nonstandard or show significant deviations of the norm, as to be described as non text book. These mainstream produced items would have been distributed to all fronts where the Wehrmacht was in action and would have invariably have ended up in the hands of the GI's.
In the case of the m43's discussed here they would most definitely not fall in the non textbook category of items, but rather mainstream production pieces. As such the people that would be in a position to provide an opinion regarding these, will be those that have handled,not one but a substantial amount of mainstream produced m43's. I am not aware of a cottage or field based industry, or period pictures, that provided, standard or panzer m43's which would be described as non textbook. The m43's are some of the most and better faked items in TR militaria, so I would be very cautious of taking the route of justifying non text book m43's.It can provide an easy way in or out for unscrupulous sellers.
With regard to Gerard calling Chris a" moron", that is not on, but he was provoked directly by Chris insinuating that he uses his knowledge and participation on the forum to market and up the prices of his items. Which was also uncalled for. JacquesComment
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With regard to Gerard calling Chris a" moron", that is not on, but he was provoked directly by Chris insinuating that he uses his knowledge and participation on the forum to market and up the prices of his items. Which was also uncalled for. Jacques[/QUOTE]
Jacques,
"self motivation for profit maximisation" can apply to any dealer in Militaria or to any business in a capitalistic system. It is a fundamental of society's which are not centrally controlled as a command economy.
If I have reacted by provoking Gerard then it was because I was feeling provoked and not for the first time either I must add.
What is important now however is to not let this situation fester and get worse or become a debate of who said what. Too often in this game collectors fall-out and too often such falling-outs turn into a battle of blue fighting gray when in fact we should be fighting on the same side in what hopefully is an enjoyable interest.
Sometimes it is harder to make peace than war and I am not one to hold a grudge so if I have done something to up-set Gerard that badly I am quite happy to apologise to him here and now. I never joined this forum to fall out with him and I personally think it is important that each and every one of us contributes to these threads so we can get to the bottom of what are the "real-deal" M43's or at the end of the day just enjoy plus discuss them .
I have also taken on board the support that others have expressed for his character as a very highly valued dealer, collector and friend. We have never done business together so I can not comment further except to say that is how I hope I am seen in my dealings as a collector also.
Anyway I will end this here because tomorrow if I can get some time I hope to add more to this thread about Panzer M43's and real issues we all need to focus on here. This thread is in fact developing into something of more interest than one would first have thought.
My final note is say thanks to those who have posted their support, PM's and email's about this also to the moderators for their fair treatment.
Now lets talk Panzer M43's,
ChrisComment
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Very refreshing to see this view, and I whole heartedly agree. Too bad there are many collectors who still don't seem to understand this.Originally posted by BenVK View PostComment
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But very dangerous and potentially costly for new and inexperienced collectors. This is the area that the criminals and fraudsters thrive in.Enter with extreme caution. JacquesOriginally posted by GFM View PostComment
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Well lets have a look at some shall we and see just how dangerous it can all become and hopefully get this thread back on to talking about M43's esp. Panzer examples.
I am being told to look at more field grey examples and imagine them in black. Please believe me that over the years I have looked at quite a few field grey ones and in fact have a several sitting here right now as I post this. Do not have many Panzer examples however.
What I have chosen is one of my favourite "one lookers" which I bought in 1978 off a 23 Batt. veteran who picked it up in Italy. Just love this one.
The second example I have chosen came from a New Zealand Returned Service Man's association when they sold off some stuff to raise funds. This cap was donated to the RSA by a 27 MG Batt. veteran who got it also in Italy . It is one of the strangest variations I have encounterd to date and I suspect it is in fact an Italian or field made. This one I hate but love if you know what I mean.
Both original 100% and at completely opposite ends of the scale but real caps which were really at the war in Italy and it would be a crime against history to reject either of these caps just because one is ugly and the other is not. Shows clearly the range of what can be encountered.
Will now get ebony to use his talent's for something constructive instead of destructive and post some images for us all to see. When he is finished I will make some more comments and then add some more images,
ChrisComment
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mmmmm where,s my post.
Veteran brought back "one-looker" M43Last edited by ebony; 06-07-2009, 02:05 AM.Comment
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