M 43 Panzer Cap

[tropenmilitaria]

Hey Gerard,
Chris has every right to voice his own opinion, whether right or wrong. He is not the seller of said caps and therefore is not the witch in this hunt.

Why don't you do the forum a service and start a thread about M43's starting with the ones that have passed through your hands, good and bad in your opinion with reasons why. It's all very well shouting "FAKE" and ridiculing people who don't agree with you on these threads but that doesn't benefit anyone.

Having been a dealer for a number of years, I'm sure you have knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes better than all of us. You go to the shows, you talk with other dealers, you get offered items from all other the world, yes? So, how about starting that thread? with examples and explain why the bad ones are bad, who are the people making them or trying to sell them and what we should look out for.
In other words, how about giving something back to all the collectors who have bought from you and pay your bills rather than taking the piss out of them?

The only one taking the "piss out of them" is the seller of these 2 caps and others with knowledge of M43s who have now chosen to remain silent given the politics behind these transactions. I give major props to Gerard for pushing the issue of refunding the nearly $5000 made on these caps. We are not talking about a $100 EKII here guys. I would love to hear Gerard and Scott debate the finer points of these caps as this would be a great service to this hobby but I feel this is highly unlikely at this stage of the game. I believe Scott feels that these are 100% original but the fact that a guy like Gerard with years of experience (and Glenn & John Hodgin) gives it a thumbs down says something. I can't help but feel that if the guy selling the 2 caps was me (a "nobody" in the hobby) then I would be attacked by about half a dozen moderators who would tell me to refund the money for both caps or face being expelled....regardless if I thought the caps were original. I remember a WAF member a couple of months ago who sold an SS cap skull and eagle cut off (which he attached & cut off) to a dealer off the forum and he was exposed and expelled. Why the heat on a transaction that happened off the forum but no heat about the selling of these caps using the WAF?? The only one pressing the issue seems to be Gerard who finds himself the odd man out....go figure. This is not a witch hunt but a journey to find some sort of concensus on the originality of these caps and the proper refunding of the money if deemed fake. I would want fellow WAF members to "go to bat" for me if I was the one holding a fake piece and likewise I hate to see a fellow member lose money on a bad item. I welcome any additional threads on M43s and points of originality but at the same time don't forgot the 2 buyers of these caps in question during the process.
-Andy

[90th Light]

The only one taking the "piss out of them" is the seller of these 2 caps and others with knowledge of M43s who have now chosen to remain silent given the politics behind these transactions. I give major props to Gerard for pushing the issue of refunding the nearly $5000 made on these caps. We are not talking about a $100 EKII here guys. I would love to hear Gerard and Scott debate the finer points of these caps as this would be a great service to this hobby but I feel this is highly unlikely at this stage of the game. I believe Scott feels that these are 100% original but the fact that a guy like Gerard with years of experience (and Glenn & John Hodgin) gives it a thumbs down says something. I can't help but feel that if the guy selling the 2 caps was me (a "nobody" in the hobby) then I would be attacked by about half a dozen moderators who would tell me to refund the money for both caps or face being expelled....regardless if I thought the caps were original. I remember a WAF member a couple of months ago who sold an SS cap skull and eagle cut off (which he attached & cut off) to a dealer off the forum and he was exposed and expelled. Why the heat on a transaction that happened off the forum but no heat about the selling of these caps using the WAF?? The only one pressing the issue seems to be Gerard who finds himself the odd man out....go figure. This is not a witch hunt but a journey to find some sort of concensus on the originality of these caps and the proper refunding of the money if deemed fake. I would want fellow WAF members to "go to bat" for me if I was the one holding a fake piece and likewise I hate to see a fellow member lose money on a bad item. I welcome any additional threads on M43s and points of originality but at the same time don't forgot the 2 buyers of these caps in question during the process.
-Andy

It is my understanding that these two M43 Panzer caps were sold via private arrangement and not on the WAF estand ??? Please confirm if that is correct.

When you go back and read it from the start, we did shut Scott down pretty quickly just as he was about to provide more detail regarding the cap which started this and where it came from.

Sort of reminds me of that situation were a vistor stated, "people ask me how I am but when I take the time to stop and try to tell them they do not seem to have the time or will to listen"

Sort of a shame we can not start all over again and get the thread going about why Panzer M43's are good or bad rather than a discussion of customer rights under sales of goods verses fair trading,

Chris

[tropenmilitaria]

Chris,
You are correct that the cap was not sold on estand but the one sold to Jacques was via PM (so still using the forum)...correct me if I am wrong. Yes, I would have liked to hear Scott's version earlier on but he was shut down too quickly. I would still be open to hearing Scott's points..and I don't say this to be a smart a** either but rather to learn.

[90th Light]

Chris,
You are correct that the cap was not sold on estand but the one sold to Jacques was via PM (so still using the forum)...correct me if I am wrong. Yes, I would have liked to hear Scott's version earlier on but he was shut down too quickly. I would still be open to hearing Scott's points..and I don't say this to be a smart a** either but rather to learn.

Andy, I think the points you are making are a fair call and can see you are not trying to be smart.

I have said for some time that M43 collectors have to become more sopisticated in their approach and document the manufacturing footprints of each maker or RB/RF number. We could then compare caps like the one which started this thread with such footprints point by point to see what we have. The guys who collect badges approach it this way and to be honest it is both impressive and helpful.

Todate a lot is based on gut feeling reaction and what some only have in their collections. We need to open up to an inquiry approach,

Chris

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Then again if I was a dealer I would want to paint an image that I knew it all so they would all buy from me and pay my crazy prices. Called self-motivation for profit maximization.



Chris

Yes, you probably would, as perhaps character would not be your strong point. Is this some kind of moronical accusation? Obviously you don't know me, with all due respect, ask around.

[jacquesf]

"When you go back and read it from the start, we did shut Scott down pretty quickly just as he was about to provide more detail regarding the cap which started this and where it came from."

To answer your question. Scott did indicate in an email where he offered the cap to me that he had the cap in his collection for more than thirty years. That means the cap had to be made before the mid seventies. Jacques

[J Melvin]

Funny you mention this John. A very serious Panzer collector who's been after my Panzer M43 just offered me. . . are you ready. . . $900 for my cap.

Gene, I'll double that offer!

[90th Light]

Yes, you probably would, as perhaps character would not be your strong point. Is this some kind of moronical accusation? Obviously you don't know me, with all due respect, ask around.

Gerard,

I have never seen a guy praise himself as much as you. I can see you have told these great stories about yourself so often that you now believe them like they were fact.

Please remember my friend that self-praise is no praise at all and try to be a little modest at least about all these achievements. You may find people enjoy enteracting with you more if you do.

Now could we please get off the personalities and back on to the finer points of Panzer M43's,

Chris

[Gene]

Gene, I'll double that offer!

Jack,

As unbelievable as it may be, I have to decline your offer! Call me kooky but I think it's just a smidgen more valuable than that. The guy who offered me $900 is in good company though. Another guy who collects para and Luftwaffe tropical items offered me $500 for my Luftwaffe tropical Schiffchen at the same time he was selling a generic enlisted Luftwaffe M43 cap for $700 on the e-stand! I guess that's what I get for giving them a chance to get me to sell items rather than trade them; dopey sub-value offers where they think I'll jump at them. Jeezus.

Gene

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

Gerard,

I have never seen a guy praise himself as much as you. I can see you have told these great stories about yourself so often that you now believe them like they were fact.

Please remember my friend that self-praise is no praise at all and try to be a little modest at least about all these achievements. You may find people enjoy enteracting with you more if you do.

Now could we please get off the personalities and back on to the finer points of Panzer M43's,

Chris

What a marooon. I can see why you have learned zip in 4 years of being on here.

[Luca Ongaro]

A very serious Panzer collector who's been after my Panzer M43 just offered me. . . are you ready. . . $900 for my cap.

[90th Light]

What a marooon. I can see why you have learned zip in 4 years of being on here.

"enteracting" sort of sums up nicely an encounter with you Gerard, a combination of entertainment and un-pleasant interaction rolled into one.

Another interesting aspect is the way that when someone does not agree with you and shows you up for being as narrow in your thinking as you are you then start insulting them because you seem to lack any other skills or ability to take the debate further.

Surely, a dealer of the standing you keep telling us all that you have has a good data base of M43 caps, their characteristics and orgins that he could now start to draw upon to take this debate to a new level. You did tell Ben and myself to go and do some research so I presume that on that basis you do a lot your self and have such research documented so it could be drawn upon. In other words you practise what you preach and can show us some basis of your great knowledge.

Anyway, I have better things to do than exchange unpleasant postings with you Gerard and I again appeal to you can we please now put our energies back into the discussion of the finer points of Panzer M43 caps.

In fact if you are so clever why do you not answer my question about the trap on the cap which started this thread. You have ignored it twice so I can only assume that you do not know.

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

Another interesting aspect is the way that when someone does not agree with you and shows you up for being as narrow in your thinking as you are you then start insulting them because you seem to lack any other skills or ability to take the debate further.

Anyway, I have better things to do than exchange unpleasant postings with you Gerard and I again appeal to you can we please now put our energies back into the discussion of the finer points of Panzer M43 caps.


Chris

And when someone does not agree with you,you seem to carry it on for several grueling pages as to why a fake Panzer M43 hat just "might" be original.This kind of nonsense just might confuse some viewing these threads and will irritate others. (Gerard,myself and several others included, who just don't want to get involved because of it)

I am happy that you have better things to do,perhaps both you and Gerard can carry on this exchange via PM or this one will be closed.

My best advice to you is to study known factory produced original green Heer M43 hats,then just picture them in black, for they were for the most part produced in the same factories as the green stuff,as were black Panzer wrappers.



Glenn

[90th Light]

For the record here let it please be noted that I compared a Carl Halfar Panzer M43 cap with a Carl Halfar Org. Todt M43 cap. There was some discussion but there were also a lot of images comparing the fine points of the two.

The Panzer cap was in question, the Org.Todt cap was from a veteran source.

If some of my learned members of this forum found that "too long" and even "grueling" then I do most sincerely apologise.

You see in my own defense, I was always taught that if you want to establish if something in Third Reich Militaria is in fact right then compare the manufacturer's footprints with a known original.

The Panzer Halfar did however compare very nicely with Org. Todt and one could clearly see many matching period features between the two.

In fact that is a good idea, why do we not do some comparative shots of this cap along side some known originals which could be either field gray or black does not matter but it would be a good thing to do so people could see.

Could move this whole thing foward to a higher and hopefully better level,

Chris

[Glenn McInnes]

There you go again,I just don't have the energy to go into why a fake Halfar Panzer M43 just might be original.Perhaps faked using an original Org Todt hat using bogus materials,markings etc to construct it.They don't seem to ever get the factory produced green M43's quite right so maybe they decided to use the Halfar name in these to somehow justify it as being a maybe (it fooled you)

Here are some real ones for you to mull over.


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=heer+m43



Glenn