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**90th Light** · 06-03-2009, 06:24 PM

Glen,

nice caps in that link you provide for sure and one can never see enough but have you come across more green/ field gray marked Halfar's ?

There are several here who are interested in seeing more both good and bad as the research does continue.

Also a LW Halfar M43 in the grey color would be another interesting sight in the flesh well the cloth shall we say.

I digress of course and do apologise, lets now get back to the Panzer M43 in question.

Regards, Chris

**Raven26** · 06-03-2009, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post

There you go again,I just don't have the energy to go into why a fake Halfar Panzer M43 just might be original.Perhaps faked using an original Org Tobt hat using bogus materials,markings etc to construct it.They don't seem to ever get the factory produced green M43's quite right so maybe they decided to use the Halfar name in these to somehow justify it as being a maybe (it fooled you)

Here are some real ones for you to mull over.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...light=heer+m43

Glenn

Hi Glenn,

Funny how such nice original caps have so few comments in a thread discussion. Hmmmm.

PS, I love your M43 caps (and Mike's), want to sell?

**Glenn McInnes** · 06-03-2009, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Glen,

nice caps in that link you provide for sure and one can never see enough but have you come across more green/ field gray marked Halfar's ?

There are several here who are interested in seeing more both good and bad as the research does continue.

Also a LW Halfar M43 in the grey color would be another interesting sight in the flesh well the cloth shall we say.

Regards, Chris

I have never seen a Halfar M43 in green or Luft blue that I can recall,I was speaking of factory produced copies (fakes trying to copy known factory produced originals) that are often posted on the Forum asking for opinions...Have seen several Halfars in black (a few dozen or more) that are all bad,Heer /Luft Panzer.

As Mr Hodgin mentioned,several of these types can be found at any large Militaria show.

Glenn

**Federico Perez** · 06-03-2009, 07:05 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Glen,

nice caps in that link you provide for sure and one can never see enough but have you come across more green/ field gray marked Halfar's ?

There are several here who are interested in seeing more both good and bad as the research does continue.

Also a LW Halfar M43 in the grey color would be another interesting sight in the flesh well the cloth shall we say.

I digress of course and do apologise, lets now get back to the Panzer M43 in question.

Regards, Chris

Chris,

Is my personal belief that your quest to prove this Panzer M43 hats as a possibility of been original are....well impossible, the evidence is quite strong against them, not by the opinion of fellow members collector in the community but by the evidence of actual period pieces, without question ORIGINAL hats, the Panzer M43 start to have problems from the start of "this case" and things get worse as the "investigation of forencic detail" are put forward.

Even if the insignia is original, that do not mean anything since the MOST important part of the "case" is the hat itself, is the main body and more extensive one and again it do not pass the test against an original.

The third and final piece of "doom" evidence is the source(original seller) of this hat(I am am talking about the item sold...NOT IN THE PERSONAL ARENA) which had a similar Panzer hat which in his opinion is still original but the majority of the community most advance collectors with hands on expirience in this type of items/headgear has come to the conclusion because of FACTS that this hat(and the other) are NOT original items or have ORIGINAL provenace Pre-May 1945, I must add that the original seller is PART of this collector community and has build a reputation of knowledge and respect among it's members, making his personal opinions and view valued and of weight in the battle for the fake vs original verification quest, that he has ignored the opinions,facts,pictures,historical facts,numbers and provenance has made his once unquestionable knowledge and "good guy" standing a bad mark among some of the members here.

NO ONE IS PERFECT and everyone of us make mistakes, when we are proven wrong and the FACTS speak against the item in question, a solution should be found to repair the mistake, If the original seller still belive strongly that this item is original and has evidence of this that could clear this problem once and for all, he should come forward and put it on the table, no excuses for personal reasons or hard fellings should be made, after all the mark of a good historian,curator,history enthusiast or important and respected member of a community(as the case here) is not only the amount of the money that counts but the trust,honor and respect that should prevail at all cost, all of those directly involved in this "PANZER M43 CASE" ARE very respected, honorable persons...ALL of them, but for this to continue, responsability,information and above all respect of the facts are a must.

This two hats has been proven a FAKE, no DEFINITIVE PROOF of originality has been found in comparison test,reputable Vet. provenance, etc,etc. BUT the arena is open for ACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE that prove the fake opinions wrong......which at this point no one has put forward.

**Raven26** · 06-03-2009, 07:40 PM

I would like to state that Gerard is of fine character. He is very knowledgeable and is very helpful to collectors. I, for one, know he is one of the best dealers and would trust his judgement on such caps.

Frank

**Glenn McInnes** · 06-03-2009, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by frank2far View Post

I would like to state that Gerard is of fine character. He is very knowledgeable and is very helpful to collectors. I, for one, know he is one of the best dealers and would trust his judgement on such caps.

Frank

Indeed he is.

Glenn

**Willi Z.** · 06-03-2009, 08:24 PM

Originally posted by frank2far View Post

I would like to state that Gerard is of fine character. He is very knowledgeable and is very helpful to collectors. I, for one, know he is one of the best dealers and would trust his judgement on such caps.

Frank

Yes indeed. Since I see him at shows about monthly I easily place him in the top 3.

So, who is going to buy this cap? It's a bargain! Isn't that the ultimate authenticity test on an item?

When I try to extract the useful parts of all this blah, blah blah, I get the feeling some think we shouldn't (or can't) declare anything in this hobby to be a fake.

**90th Light** · 06-03-2009, 11:52 PM

Hello Federico,

I have read what you have written here more than once and given it consideration. Your argument is certainly thought out and I can see what you are saying

With regard to the cap which started this I have already stated and now repeat that I am on the fence.

I have not handled the cap or had any chance to inspect it in detail.

I know nothing of why Scott thinks the cap is good or how he came to get it but he has alluded that we would all find this interesting. Scott too has handled a good number of these M43's for sure.

and nobody out of all the experienced collectors reading this has answered my question about the trap being one not seen very often so is it good or bad ?

I am not trying to defend these caps, I am trying and asking for an analysis beyond one liners or a series of off the top of the head gut reaction answers.

Gerard states that I have learnt nothing in 4 years then it would stand to reason that if I am consistantly getting one-liners or lets make it up as we go then of course one will learn nothing.

and it gets worse, if I question the one liners or ask for more information then I get told to read between the lines, take note of the hidden meaning, look at who said it or study more examples of originals ( study more originals is a "catch 22" in itself ). Becomes fascicle after a while does it not.

of course we do not want to give the fakers too much info do we ? Problem is the fakers seem to have the info to make all the fakes which are poping up at the shows but the poor old collectors do not seem to be in the loop so where does that leave the collector asking for more info ?

plus I have been lucky enough to get many of mine directly from veterans and can confirm that no collector regards of who they are or for how long they have been collecting has seen it all.

Anyway, one must keep asking why and why not until one finds the answer. Perseverance is always a key to knowledge.

Good posting, Chris

Originally posted by Federico Perez View Post

Chris,

Is my personal belief that your quest to prove this Panzer M43 hats as a possibility of been original are....well impossible, the evidence is quite strong against them, not by the opinion of fellow members collector in the community but by the evidence of actual period pieces, without question ORIGINAL hats, the Panzer M43 start to have problems from the start of "this case" and things get worse as the "investigation of forencic detail" are put forward.

Even if the insignia is original, that do not mean anything since the MOST important part of the "case" is the hat itself, is the main body and more extensive one and again it do not pass the test against an original.

The third and final piece of "doom" evidence is the source(original seller) of this hat(I am am talking about the item sold...NOT IN THE PERSONAL ARENA) which had a similar Panzer hat which in his opinion is still original but the majority of the community most advance collectors with hands on expirience in this type of items/headgear has come to the conclusion because of FACTS that this hat(and the other) are NOT original items or have ORIGINAL provenace Pre-May 1945, I must add that the original seller is PART of this collector community and has build a reputation of knowledge and respect among it's members, making his personal opinions and view valued and of weight in the battle for the fake vs original verification quest, that he has ignored the opinions,facts,pictures,historical facts,numbers and provenance has made his once unquestionable knowledge and "good guy" standing a bad mark among some of the members here.

NO ONE IS PERFECT and everyone of us make mistakes, when we are proven wrong and the FACTS speak against the item in question, a solution should be found to repair the mistake, If the original seller still belive strongly that this item is original and has evidence of this that could clear this problem once and for all, he should come forward and put it on the table, no excuses for personal reasons or hard fellings should be made, after all the mark of a good historian,curator,history enthusiast or important and respected member of a community(as the case here) is not only the amount of the money that counts but the trust,honor and respect that should prevail at all cost, all of those directly involved in this "PANZER M43 CASE" ARE very respected, honorable persons...ALL of them, but for this to continue, responsability,information and above all respect of the facts are a must.

This two hats has been proven a FAKE, no DEFINITIVE PROOF of originality has been found in comparison test,reputable Vet. provenance, etc,etc. BUT the arena is open for ACTUAL HARD EVIDENCE that prove the fake opinions wrong......which at this point no one has put forward.

**John Hodgin** · 06-04-2009, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by frank2far View Post

Hi Glenn,

Funny how such nice original caps have so few comments in a thread discussion.

Good GRIEF YES! Originals merit a "wow" or "that's nice" or "I'll take it" from the more aggressive types, but the reproductions somehow produce page after page of confusing discussion.

Just my philosophy but, if it isn't textbook, or with rock solid provenance, or you yourself don't have a clue, walk away!

And I too place Gerard on the "one of the most wise and honest dealers" list. Too bad more dealers are not like him!

John

**90th Light** · 06-04-2009, 07:43 PM

Now I see what I have been doing wrong.

I was discussing things in detail on a "discussion forum"

but it is not it is a "confirmation forum" and you only use a few short words to confirm

so M43's with few postings and very little words are original and the ones with many postings and lots of words are fake.

Thanks guys I think I understand,

Chris

**besslein** · 06-04-2009, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Now I see what I have been doing wrong.

I was discussing things in detail on a "discussion forum"

but it is not it is a "confirmation forum" and you only use a few short words to confirm

so M43's with few postings and very little words are original and the ones with many postings and lots of words are fake.

Thanks guys I think I understand,

Chris

lol thats a intersting post

**John Hodgin** · 06-04-2009, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

Now I see what I have been doing wrong.

I was discussing things in detail on a "discussion forum"

but it is not it is a "confirmation forum" and you only use a few short words to confirm

so M43's with few postings and very little words are original and the ones with many postings and lots of words are fake.

Thanks guys I think I understand,

Chris

Sarcasm noted Chris.

But NO! As I told Jack in Admin., it should be obvious that if Gerard actually details the problems with this cap, really explains the problems, a better blueprint is created for forgers. Have always felt we are our worst enemies in this regard. While this site is a great asset, at the same time it is highly studied by crooks.

John

**Lenny W** · 06-04-2009, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

Sarcasm noted Chris.

But NO! As I told Jack in Admin., it should be obvious that if Gerard actually details the problems with this cap, really explains the problems, a better blueprint is created for forgers. Have always felt we are our worst enemies in this regard. While this site is a great asset, at the same time it is highly studied by crooks.

John

thank you John

**Leroy** · 06-04-2009, 09:01 PM

John,
Your feelings are praiseworthy, but you have met Floch and a lot of the others during your many years in this hobby. You know that they are perfectly capable of re-producing (or having someone else reproduce for them) one of these caps with exactitude, but are not willing (for cost or other reasons) to do so (at least on any large scale). They ALREADY know (and in many cases, better than truly advanced collectors) how, in detail, these items were made.
I have felt for a long time that the really good forgers don't need us to educate them. It may well be true that detailed examination and explanation on this and other forums may assist, to some limited extent, the "run of the mill" fakers, but, in balance, we have to take this risk if we hope to advance. These "low-level, mass production" fakers will never go to the trouble or expense, based on what we share, to create serious problems for serious collectors. I worry about the serious forgers. I have no doubt they already sometimes make fakes (of uniform items, not yet badges) which are undetectable.
In other words (and I am sure I am in the minority in this) I would vote to "let it all hang out."
In an earlier post in this thread (which I intentionally deleted), I listed virtually all of the serious forgers in this hobby, as identified repeatedly over the years. I deleted it because I realized that they HAVE been, already, identified. Who needs to be identified now are the dealers who buy from them and sell their products as real. This is one of the reasons I have urged members to pay attention, at shows, to the dealers who visit their tables (even though a lot of material passes hands outside public view).
Regards,
Leroy

**90th Light** · 06-04-2009, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

Sarcasm noted Chris.

But NO! As I told Jack in Admin., it should be obvious that if Gerard actually details the problems with this cap, really explains the problems, a better blueprint is created for forgers. Have always felt we are our worst enemies in this regard. While this site is a great asset, at the same time it is highly studied by crooks.

John

Fair point John and I apologise for the sarcasm on my part

My heart and interest lies with collecting this stuff and preserving this piece history for the right reasons. If something which is in fact original is declared fake then that worries me.

Some where between saying a lot and saying very little is the truth.

I will add however that no matter how much I think a fellow member knows or does not know that I will under no circumstances call that member a "Moroon" There is no excuss for personal abuse or put downs in these discussions

I believe every body has a right to their opinion and I will always consider other's point of view but may not always agree.

After all at the end of the day is this not the freedom our soldiers fought for and continue to fight for.

Again please accept my apology John,

Chris

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