Panzer m43

[djpool]

Chris,


Admirable effort. I wish I could help but I've never owned a Halfar hat of any type. In fact I don't recall seeing a single Heer Halfar M43 of any type or Overseas cap for that matter. They were a large firm and according to wilkins did make field caps. Its also strange that none of the older collectors has produced a Halfar cap that can be traced to the early days of collecting:

1960s-to maybe the 1980s. I use the 80s as a cutoff for myself as to a time when newer and better repros started hitting the market.

It would be great if you had an undisputed original army wool field cap to compare with.

WR Jim

The challenge now becomes the fact that we devide into the "Blue and the Grey" over this;

the collector stuck with the cap desperately trying to justify that what they have is right verses the staunch well recognised collector of many years standing who has states the cap is bad and that is that.

at some stage the cap collectors are going to have to evolve and become a little more "scientific" in their approach rather than relying so much on their "gut feelings"

I have always been impressed with the badge collectors in this regard. They have documented the footprints of each manufacturer and also documented the footprints of the fakers such as the "African Hero" Their approach is more professional and informed.

If an item was made by a certain manufacturer then their manufacturer's footprint will be there and the item will be made of war time materials.

as I have already stated, I was quite ready to accept that this Carl Halfar LW M43 was bad after seeing this on stated on the forum. I thought, well that is as close as they come so I set out to find out what was good and what was bad. The more I investigated the more confusing this become, I was picking up a lot of good points and not many bad at all.

Now it may well be that this in fact a fake cap but it is one of the best fakes ever made if it is or it is a real deal which is seriously mis-understood by the collecting community at large. No skin off my nose either way because it owes me nothing like $2500.

No the burning questions in my mind over all of this are;

1/ Where are all the Carl Halfar M43's from the war ? I mean how many visors did they need in the period 1943 to 1945 and what was the Halfar factory making at that time. They were a big company so why so few M43's and if this not the real deal then where are the real deals ?

2/ Who made this so called excellent fake of the Panzer M43 and what did they base it on ? Why is cap so close to the Org. Todt M43's also by this maker ? I mean why copy a Org. Todt so closely and then completely stuff up the stamp after getting every thing else so right. All the attention to detail is there including the right materials except for the stamp and may be the lining. Why not put an RB number in it then we may in fact be none the wiser or may be these are the Halfar Panzer M43's and that is why.

More questions than answers I known. Looks like the haunting has already begun in this life,

Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,


Admirable effort. I wish I could help but I've never owned a Halfar hat of any type. In fact I don't recall seeing a single Heer Halfar M43 of any type or Overseas cap for that matter. They were a large firm and according to wilkins did make field caps. Its also strange that none of the older collectors has produced a Halfar cap that can be traced to the early days of collecting:

1960s-to maybe the 1980s. I use the 80s as a cutoff for myself as to a time when newer and better repros started hitting the market.

It would be great if you had an undisputed original army wool field cap to compare with.

WR Jim

Thanks Jim, just the fact that you have chipped with this been a help.

This is my hope out of all of this as well, that someone can put up some more examples of Carl Halfar field caps for us all to study.

I know they made LW sidecaps so may be a starting point.

Certainly not my intention to prove any long standing experienced collectors wrong but it never hurts to revisit a judgment especially when one of the biggest things held against these caps is the fact that they appeared out of Russia after the wall came down. All appear to have been heavily washed which explains the condition of the lining verses the exterior.

I agree that this is every reason for extreme caution and suspicion but equally lets not also forget that the Russians did captured huge amounts of German material and these caps measure up as real.

Anyway the ball is rolling so lets see what others might come up with,

Chris

[djpool]

Chris,

Its obvious lots of folks have Halfar caps with dubious credentials. So that a any collector from novice to advanced could be fooled is not really an issue IMHO.

I did a search on the forum for Halfar hats and other than tropicals and visor caps theres no consensus on what an original stamp looks like. The one thing for certain is they used a number of different stamps. It may have been you that may have commented on all these rare Halfars popping up all with different stamps. Thats also a similar phenomena with the HBT/Denim wraps with zig zag stitched collars.

Heres a picture showing two Halfar stamps on original hats. The bottom photo is from a Org Todt hat posted by Stonemint. He believes its a Halfar made hat. This is RBN'd. I don't know but its possible.


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9.../halstamps.jpg

Now this may have been brought up but the conterversial hats all appear to use block lettering to spell out CARL HALFAR, much like this found on visors.

The three hats I like two tropicals and one Org Todt cap spell it out:

Carl Halfar

Certainly not enough of a sampling to draw any firm conclusions, but certainly a line of thought to follow as you collect stamps from no brainer originals.


WR jim

Thanks Jim, just the fact that you have chipped with this been a help.

This is my hope out of all of this as well, that someone can put up some more examples of Carl Halfar field caps for us all to study.

I know they made LW sidecaps so may be a starting point.

Certainly not my intention to prove any long standing experienced collectors wrong but it never hurts to revisit a judgment especially when one of the biggest things held against these caps is the fact that they appeared out of Russia after the wall came down. All appear to have been heavily washed which explains the condition of the lining verses the exterior.

I agree that this is every reason for extreme caution and suspicion but equally lets not also forget that the Russians did captured huge amounts of German material and these caps measure up as real.

Anyway the ball is rolling so lets see what others might come up with,

Chris

[90th Light]

Chris,

Its obvious lots of folks have Halfar caps with dubious credentials. So that a any collector from novice to advanced could be fooled is not really an issue IMHO.

I did a search on the forum for Halfar hats and other than tropicals and visor caps theres no consensus on what an original stamp looks like. The one thing for certain is they used a number of different stamps. It may have been you that may have commented on all these rare Halfars popping up all with different stamps. Thats also a similar phenomena with the HBT/Denim wraps with zig zag stitched collars.

Heres a picture showing two Halfar stamps on original hats. The bottom photo is from a Org Todt hat posted by Stonemint. He believes its a Halfar made hat. This is RBN'd. I don't know but its possible.


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9.../halstamps.jpg

Now this may have been brought up but the conterversial hats all appear to use block lettering to spell out CARL HALFAR, much like this found on visors.

The three hats I like two tropicals and one Org Todt cap spell it out:

Carl Halfar

Certainly not enough of a sampling to draw any firm conclusions, but certainly a line of thought to follow as you collect stamps from no brainer originals.


WR jim

Hello Jim,

you raise some good points and yes I agree the stamps of this company are a real puzzle. I have seen two versions of their stamp in tropical M40 caps which you show in your link and I have seen two versions of their stamp in the Org.Todt M43 caps. Plus we have the version in the controversial Panzer M43's and the version in the LW side caps which is different again.

Leaves one wondering just how many different stamps did they have and why ?

They were certainly one of the bigger operations in Berlin and they opened a sizable branch in Gnesen which became an independent company in its own right. May-be each division or business unit had its own stamp and that way they could monitor quality control ???

I can not explain the stamp in the Panzer M43's its seems to lack logic when compared to other makers of M43's at the time but then the proliferation of stamps which Halfar have used in total also lacks logic or comparison.

Another thing to keep in mind is the fact that the Russians in 1945 did over-run both the Berlin factory/ warehouse and the Genesen factory/ warehouse so if any one got their hands on the stock it was the Russians.

My feeling at this stage is that I like the Panzer M43's a lot and I will certainly not be getting rid of mine in a hurry until I have had the chance to study a few more Halfar field caps. Some how in this matter I do not think I will be alone.

Again best regards, Chris

[BenVK]

Here's another one I just found over on GD forum. At first, I thought it was the same cap shown in post #43 but it's not. Looks like it was sold by PvL at one point judging by the photos.

[BenVK]

2

[BenVK]

3

[BenVK]

4

[Richard P]

Chris,

I borrowed two Carl Halfar marked panzer M-43's from a local collector. The Halfar mark is the same in both, but slightly different from any pictured so far. One is SS and one is Heer. I am charging my camera battery and will get on it as time allows.

Richard

[90th Light]

Ben and Richard, I am certainly looking forward to seeing more examples.

I think the trap on the SS example which Ben has posted (No's 240 to 243) is hand applied and possibly not original to the cap ??? The rest of the cap looks to be the same as my one however but is slightly more worn, showing some damage and has Russian capture marks which mine does not.

Another version of the stamp on Richard's example. Looking forward to seeing it but is there no end to the possibilities ???

Many thanks, Guys

Chris

[BenVK]

Ok, I've been researching these soviet stamps, bit of a painful experience but some interesting information came to light.

The triangular stamp is the key. I won't go into details here but basically, it's a theatre or film studio stamp of which originals do exist but the stamps in these caps are most certainly poor copies. Apart from the ones in these caps, my research also unearthed the same copy of stamp in tunics and wraps, also all suspect in one way or another. The most telling sign is that the original stamps are quite crisp and have the year inside the triangle, where as the copies don't or just have "19" visible and the rest scrubbed out and are very blurry.
I'm in no doubt now myself, these stamps are bogus.

What does that say about the caps themselves? Well for me, one questionable Panzer M43 with fake Soviet stamps would ring huge alarm bells. Yes, some totaly original TR items have been embellished with dubious stamps but how many of these caps have we seen now? 3 or 4? and all identical in materials and construction, just with different insignia applied.

As for the ones without the fake stamps? well, I wouldn't feel at all comfortable with any of them simply because they can be judged guilty by association with the others plus there's just too many of the god damn things floating around as we've seen.

I had an open mind before but I think it can firmly shut it now knowing what I know from the research I've put in.

[Francesco]

This is a very interesting and constructive thread but I
would be sure to understand.Are all the caps (M43 and Sidecap)
with the lining like these in the posts 7/42/94 all fake?
Are you 100% sure has never been used this material?

[Richard P]

Ben, Chris,

Here are two more for you both to dissect. Ben , these two will probably support most of your contentions.

I won't make any judgment calls and will leave that to you two and others to have at them. I can answer questions about these two caps since I have them in hand.

I also happen to know their source...which will remain hidden until the end, lest it prejudice anyone one way or the other.

The lining does feel like Gerard's famous quote: "lining is like soft T-shirt material".

Richard

[Richard P]

2. Ss m-43.

[Richard P]

3. Side view.