Announcement

**Karl S.** · 03-26-2009, 07:39 AM

Jacques, I realize this wasn't bought on the e-stand. But how long after you received the item did you become dissatisfied with it and requested the seller to take it back? At the very least the seller and buyer should abide by the e-stand return rule;

I) Returns –

a) Returns must be allowed by the seller for any reason for a period of 7 seven days from when the items arrives.
b) The item must be returned via traceable means, and in the same exact condition as was received.

**jacquesf** · 03-26-2009, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by Karl S. View Post

Jacques, I realize this wasn't bought on the e-stand. But how long after you received the item did you become dissatisfied with it and requested the seller to take it back? At the very least the seller and buyer should abide by the e-stand return rule;

I) Returns –

a) Returns must be allowed by the seller for any reason for a period of 7 seven days from when the items arrives.
b) The item must be returned via traceable means, and in the same exact condition as was received.

I highlighted the problem twice. The first time when I bought it. He gave a long explanation about the forum guys not knowing these caps etc. I believed him due to his name and reputation.The second time was when some guys had a hands on and declared it bad that was about over a year later. I should have done more homework on the cap and not trusted the individual. Jacques

**Karl S.** · 03-26-2009, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

I highlighted the problem twice. The first time when I bought it. He gave a long explanation about the forum guys not knowing these caps etc. I believed him due to his name and reputation.The second time was when some guys had a hands on and declared it bad that was about over a year later. I should have done more homework on the cap and not trusted the individual. Jacques

I can sympathize with your situation. I think the best thing is to learn from the experience and move along. You can make yourself ill if you let it get to you. Good luck and best wishes.

**Gerard/Relic Hunter** · 03-26-2009, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

He gave a long explanation about the forum guys not knowing these caps etc. I believed him due to his name and reputation.

Very disturbing.

**sunny59** · 03-26-2009, 07:19 PM

Horror story

Just can't believe the behavior and actitude of someones. And we all know to whom I am refering to.

What I can't still undestand is what these people think will be the outcome. Who will trust this person if another piece came up? Or any piece? And how about reputation? Your name means a lot in this hobby, as in any profession. All your efforts and dedication down into the toilet. All that for two grams???

This incident is going to be like a shadow, or a ghost ...........

Actually, internet really help on news and they move fast. So fast some people underestimate it.

Jacques you did the right thing.

**John Pic** · 03-27-2009, 01:32 PM

Well that seller just shot his reputation down the toilet along with any rep he had as being knowledgeable on Third Reich regalia. Sad

Jacques,there are two schools of collectors remember, and more seem to be in the school that skirts ethics.

Youre a good contributor to the forum and I hope this doesnt disuade you from the hobby.

**djpool** · 03-27-2009, 07:27 PM

Scott if your reading this I am disappointed that you never responded to the thread. I know its tough when it looks like a lynch mob is forming. You have to feel like a member of AIG. But if you made a mistake or still stand by it you should respond. I know we've never met but we have corresponded on a number of occasions. You have been one of my mentors for a long time. I remember your articles from the Gaulieter days. If you sold the hat in good faith to Jacques and the terms of the sell were abided too, then no foul in my humble opinion. Sorry Jacques and to the other that disagree with me. Years back a good friend sold me a hat in good faith and I believed it was real. Two years later I figured out it was fake and got quite angry with him about it. Truth is he never promised me a lifetime guarentee and I was wrong to get angry with him because of my lack of knowledge. Fortunately we're friends again.

Anyone that can fight the Taliban in Afghanistan can surely make this right.

WR Jim

**Leroy** · 03-27-2009, 08:34 PM

Scott deserves a chance to respond here and for all we know he could be in some God-forsaken part of the world with no ability to do so or even any awareness this is being discussed. I am not taking sides here at all. Both Jacques and Scott are good guys and it is hard for me to believe that Scott would not have responded if he was able to do so (at least based on my own personal past experience with him). If he IS able to respond, he should. In the meantime, this is a situation which apparently took a while to play out initially, so perhaps we should be quiet for a while

**CSP** · 03-27-2009, 10:15 PM

x

**Sebastian Bianchi** · 03-27-2009, 10:33 PM

This goes down to basic fact that as a private collector, you can't offer a lifetime guarantee. The transaction was done, and 10 months went by....I can only speak for myself, but when I let something go from my collection it's not just for fun, it's because I'm using the money for something. As long as you sell it in good faith, which I believe Scott did, you are well within your rights to hold your ground when someone comes asking for a refund almost a year later. If you buy a car from a friend and the transmission goes 10 months later, do you bring it back to him? Stop for a second and ask yourself, honestly, what you would do.

**jacquesf** · 03-27-2009, 10:54 PM

Sebastian, I just want to clear something. I did not only raise the problem and concern regarding the cap with Scott, 10 month after I bought it. That was the second time.I posted it on the forum and inform him immediately after I bought it.

I hate doing this, but this was his response via e-mail on that occasion,

"Jacques:
I saw the thread. No surprises there for me. You will seldom if ever get
concensus on Panzer M43s - especially on the WAF as we have collectively
created the folklore that they are so problematic

... but you are also not getting any definitive comments from any of the
nay-sayers in this thread...and you won't. For example " I know there are
Halfar fakes...", etc. What's the value of that comment? I guess it makes
the poster sound like he knows something when in fact he's stating the
obvious. He may as well have said "I know there are fake Panzer M43s"...I
find it maddening, which is why you will seldom hear me comment unless I can
provide something that approaches evidence. or at least a detailed response.

It is certainly ok to use the WAF and...my opinion is not necessarily
correct, either. But I stand behind the cap.

Others are deferring to someone(s) who they hold up as authorities and those
people will also not be able to or will refuse give you anything definitive
I bet. Comments like "I could entertain doubts" are next to useless as they
are never backed up with anything.

The photo I shared with you at least is something in the area of being
definitive and I have full confidence in the cap.

I can try send additional photos over the weekend. Not a problem at all.
It's a lot of money and you need to be content that you have spent it
wisely.

You will not get any better response on the other cap I suspect - perhaps
worse than speculation -as so many people will not be at all familiar with
such a style at all and will immediately reject it.

sincerely,

scott"

I don't want to get into a debate about life time guarrentees again. The fact of the matter is that I was sold a fake and the response of the the seller was less than satisfactory. We all make mistakes it is however how you deal with it that matters. And yes I did choose to buy the cap based on this e-mail and that was my mistake. Jacques

**90th Light** · 03-27-2009, 10:57 PM

The appropriate focus of this thread should be to discuss the finer points of Carl Halfar Panzer M43's and that is where our attentions should be directed.

I believe that Carl Halfar did make Panzer M43's and although being in a very small minority on this forum I am not alone in this belief on a bigger scale of collecting Third Reich Militaria. Seems you either like them or you do not

The question here is if the cap which Scott sold Jacques is in fact a genuine Carl Halfar M43 of pre-May 43 manufacture or not. That is what we should be investigating.

This discussion has however degenerated into some sort of "Kangaroo" court full of bush lawyers and others hell bent on witch burning,

Chris

**jacquesf** · 03-27-2009, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by 90th Light View Post

The appropriate focuss of this thread should be to discuss the finer points of Carl Halfar Panzer M43's and that is where our attentions should be directed.

I believe that Carl Halfar did make Panzer M43's and although being in a very small minority on this forum I am not alone in this belief on a bigger scale of collecting Third Reich Militaria. Seems you either like them or you do not

The question here is if the cap which Scott sold Jacques is in fact a genuine Carl Halfar M43 of pre-May 43 manufacture or not. That is what we should be investigating.

This discussion has however degenerated into some sort of "Kangaroo" court full of bush lawyers and others hell bent on witch burning,

Chris

Chris, there has been a detailed discussion on the merit of the cap and very detailed assessment was done, on the forum and hands on. The consensus is that it is a fake. The seller had ample opportunity to participate in the very civil discussion and explain why he beliefs the cap is original. I assume these beliefs would have some factual basis, which would have added to the discussion. He however choose not to, which is his right, Jacques

**Thomas Durante** · 03-27-2009, 11:52 PM

Scott, I cannot tell you how VERY surprised I am that you will not take this cap back, NO MATTER HOW MUCH TIME HAS GONE BY!? I have met you several times at shows and cannot believe that there is good consensus here that the cap is a fake. Regardless of how much time has gone by, I cannot believe that you can be comfortable knowing that you sold someone a fake, even if it wasn't clear to you 10 months ago.

Is it clear to you now that the cap is fake after all this discussion? Most of us on the WAF are not dealers and not independently wealthy, but there is NO EXCUSE for selling a reproduction. Here is your own statement as posted by Jacques:

"It is certainly ok to use the WAF and...my opinion is not necessarily
correct, either. But I stand behind the cap."

What, infact are you standing behind??

Tom

**90th Light** · 03-28-2009, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

Chris, there has been a detailed discussion on the merit of the cap and very detailed assessment was done, on the forum and hands on. The consensus is that it is a fake. The seller had ample opportunity to participate in the very civil discussion and explain why he beliefs the cap is original. I assume these beliefs would have some factual basis, which would have added to the discussion. He however choose not to, which is his right, Jacques

Hello Jacques and I can see where you are coming with what you say here but I think many had made up their mind long before they ever saw or handled the cap which Scott sold you.

I too would also have accepted the word of those who know so much here on the forum but when I got to have a hands on with one then suddenly some of their reasons did not add up and the cap passed every test I could throw at it except the makers stamp not being an RB or RF number or the lining material not being something commonly seen. These two points I do agree are question marks but I have now matched the lining material to a an LW shoulder board.

My cap was also dismissed instantly as bad, no discussion end of story, our minds are set in concrete which has dried and seemly I should not compare with an original Carl Halfar Org. Todt M43 to try and determine authenticity because that is naughty. Well if I do not compare with an original then what should I compare with and criticism of such a comparison only shows insecurity of those who put such an action down.

Now if those who handled the cap which Scott sold you have such a mind set then what conclusion other than fake were they going to come to ??? I mean did you really think they might re-think their pre-determination ??? No the court had already decided its verdict. (and if this was a court, you would have been asked to have also have got another one or two expert opinions from another completely unrelated and independent source.)

I do agree with you however that I too would like to hear Scott's reasoning and the points he likes or dislikes about Carl Halfar Panzer M43's because I know he has handled a few and his experience is vast but I fear he may have felt that he was pushing a heavy load up-hill with the mind set of many on this forum.

Anyway there is probably not much more I can do here, to post any more findings, investigation or photos is probably a waste of time on my part. The court has made up its mind but I do ask you to look again at the differences I pointed out between my Carl Halfar Org. Todt M43 and the one on Gerard's site (posting number 163) and again I repeat that there is a possibility that this may also be the case with the Carl Halfar Panzer M43 I have and the one you have.

Then again I too as Scott has accused have stated that "there are fake Carl Halfar's out there" which is not making this easy for any of us.

Regards, Chris

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