H.G. Panzer Beret

[J Melvin]

Ludwig Baer writes in his treatise on the German helmet of the difficulties that the Luftwaffe had in outfitting its soldiers in the early years. However, he focuses on helmets and not on the panzer beret. I would assume that the same problems that were encountered in filling orders for helmets for Luftwaffe troops were also encountered on other pieces of equipment that were being requisitioned by the Heer in large quantities. Hence the conversion of a Heer beret for Luftwaffe usage. I, frankly, would almost expect Heer markings to be found within it.

[tgn]

You would make a great Defense Attorney Tom...

Best,
Glenn

Wow, Glenn, you are my friend for life! I have NEVER received a better compliment!

Tom

BTW, Mike, I believe the only berets factory produced were Heer berets. The SS berets are Heer conversions, too. The tailor who applied the insignia on the example recently found was more "conventional", though. Oh, should I say he put the sewing machine settings on a ziz-zag pattern that "we" find more conventional 68 years later!

Oh, as for speed of sewing, try hand sewing some BeVo insignia sometime yourself. Then have someone use a machine to do the same. I bet a dime (double my last bet!) that the machine wins! Maybe that is why the invention of the sewing machine revolutionized the garmet industry!!!

Tom

[Glenn McInnes]

Oh, as for speed of sewing, try hand sewing some BeVo insignia sometime yourself. Then have someone use a machine to do the same. I bet a dime (double my last bet!) that the machine wins! Maybe that is why the invention of the sewing machine revolutionized the garmet industry!!!

Tom

Then I would believe this same logic would apply for most Heer factory produced berets (and produced in far greater numbers)when in fact most were hand applied using Bevo insignia.


Factories in my opinion would be much more "expedient".




Glenn

[Willi Z.]

Ludwig Baer writes in his treatise on the German helmet of the difficulties that the Luftwaffe had in outfitting its soldiers in the early years. However, he focuses on helmets and not on the panzer beret. I would assume that the same problems that were encountered in filling orders for helmets for Luftwaffe troops were also encountered on other pieces of equipment that were being requisitioned by the Heer in large quantities. Hence the conversion of a Heer beret for Luftwaffe usage. I, frankly, would almost expect Heer markings to be found within it.

Jack, I agree that the Luftwaffe, as did the SS, had difficulties in outfitting it's troops in the pre-war years. That is why the Luftwaffe unit marked most of their uniform/ field gear items before 1941. Wouldn't it make sense that a Luftwaffe Panzer beret be unit marked to the proper Luftwaffe unit? Again, this beret has a 1940 Heer depot stamp and a Heer Panzer unit. No evidence of either being marked out and replaced with a Luftwaffe unit stamp.

Regarding bevo insignia used by the Luftwaffe; the first model of the Meyer cap had hand sewn tropical insignia (1942), the second model had hand sewn bevo insignia (1942), and the thrid model had machine sewn bevo insignia (1943).

As others have stated, this style of machine zig-zag stitching on headgear insignia (factory or otherwise) is very odd for the Luftwaffe. Smocks and Fliegerblusen are a different matter. 4-pocket tunics all had hand- applied insignia. The pre/ early wars years were more black and white than later on.

[Willi Z.]

Wow, Glenn, you are my friend for life! I have NEVER received a better compliment!

Unless he doesn't like defense attorneys!

[tgn]

Then I would believe this same logic would apply for most Heer factory produced berets (and produced in far greater numbers)when in fact most were hand applied using Bevo insignia.

Glenn

Ah, but Glenn, as time went on, they, the Germans, learned that hand sewing was too time consuming and thus they gradually went to machine sewing on insignia too. Even some later berets have machine sewn insignia.

But in the field, with comany tailors, we still find a mixture of hand and machine sewn insginia right to the end of the war.

Tom

[tgn]

Unless he doesn't like defense attorneys!

Oops, I never considered that.

[tgn]

Jack, I agree that the Luftwaffe, as did the SS, had difficulties in outfitting it's troops in the pre-war years. That is why the Luftwaffe unit marked most of their uniform/ field gear items before 1941. Wouldn't it make sense that a Luftwaffe Panzer beret be unit marked to the proper Luftwaffe unit? Again, this beret has a 1940 Heer depot stamp and a Heer Panzer unit. No evidence of either being marked out and replaced with a Luftwaffe unit stamp.

Regarding bevo insignia used by the Luftwaffe; the first model of the Meyer cap had hand sewn tropical insignia (1942), the second model had hand sewn bevo insignia (1942), and the thrid model had machine sewn bevo insignia (1943).

As others have stated, this style of machine zig-zag stitching on headgear insignia (factory or otherwise) is very odd for the Luftwaffe. Smocks and Fliegerblusen are a different matter. 4-pocket tunics all had hand- applied insignia. The pre/ early wars years were more black and white than later on.

Two things, first, remember that there were TWO berets sold. Whose to say the bases weren't switched? Maybe the other base would have been more to your liking. Wonder what ever happened to it???

Second, all your arguments on sewing techniques are for factory produced items. Things sewn by company tailors would not necessarily conform to factory standards. I think that was the point Bryon was trying to make. And I know he has seen a lot of non-conforming original items.

Tom

[J Melvin]

"In late 1942, when plans were formulated to expand Division 'HG' to a Panzer-Division, Oberst Schmalz and a large cadre of experienced Army officers and NCOs of the Panzerwaffe were transferred to the Division. From this date, the variants and non-regulation wearing of mixed uniforms (Army and Luftwaffe) transpired." Roger Bender and George Peterson, "Herman Goring: from Regiment to Fallschirmpanzerkorps".

Following the dates of the bevo insignia usage on Hermann Meyer's listed above by Willi, the timing for a black-backed bevo eagle is in line with the conversion of the Heer panzer troops.

[Bob Hritz]

I certainly hope that whoever is buying the Luft beret does his research and reads theough this fascinating thread. At least he will have heard every 'pro' and 'con' abouut the beret.

I have little doubt this beret will find a home, in the future.

Bob Hritz

[Richard P]

This has been a very interesting thread and exactly what one would hope to see on a subject like this. No personal attacks, name calling, and all the other flotsam and jetsam that clogs up otherwise informative threads.

On the sewing of this beret tam, I can guarantee that an experienced seamstress or tailor can machine stitch this insignia on in a matter of about 30 seconds...especially if doing a run of the same thing. Much faster than hand stitching whether the machine is foot powered or electrically powered. I have seen professionals at work and it is hard to follow, they are so fast. Type of stitch does not matter...a machine can do zig-zag almost as fast as straight stitch. You only set the machine up once if doing a run, and then you repeat the same pattern over and over. Of course the bevo insignia has to be prepared for sewing ahead of time, another tedious step.

This particular insignia looks to me like it was done in a hurry...and not the work of someone trying to be very precise and imitate the zig-zag to fool collectors. Much more like someone just wanting to get through them all, like on some jump smocks and field jackets.

Don't forget that the tam has easy access to the front and back, unlike other types of headgear mentioned, that had a lot of hand stitched insignia early on. The tight zig-zag is a very strong and solid stitch and the insignia can take a lot of abuse and repeated washings, like the jump smocks, field jackets.

Tom had a very valid point. I can't tell you how many beret tams I have seen switched by collectors. Its been going on since berets have been collected. How about the ones switched during the period...no one can possibly say. Loose tams sell...loose crash helmets sell. I have seen at least 6 Heer tams sell in this past year, and that is just a casual glance at a fraction of what takes place. Bryon Singer has also made a number of compelling observations on sewing.

I think if this insignia was added on by a collector, they would have taken it to a seamstress who would do a beautifully spaced zig-zag stitch, with every intersection perfectly squared, which can be done if taking ones time. Here are a bunch of great examples for comparison, with a couple of them Glenn's. All examples are from two threads on the FJ forum.

Richard

[Richard P]

2. Backside of a khakirock 1941 dated.

[Richard P]

3. Notice how some of the zig-zag gets very close together in spots.

[Richard P]

4. Looks like a very heavy "T" stitch, or whatever its called.

[Richard P]

5. Fairly heavy zig-zag even running into the wing at one point...possibly in a hurry. I think this is a close-up of one of Glenn's.