H.G. Panzer Beret

[Willi Z.]

I have to say that's a bit too far of a jump...although the odds did go up a lot.

Yup, the Grand Canyon requires quite the leap.

Lots of unanswered questions and "what ifs" remain for me. Heer unit marking, depot stamp, machine sewn insignia (if they are original), etc, etc.

Who has seen machine sewn insignia on Luftwaffe caps before 1943? I haven't. I have a 11/43 dated overseas cap with a machine sewn eagle. Not the cockade though. Most M43s started out with hand sewn insignia. Even Meyer caps were hand sewn until the 3rd model came out in 1943, which had machine sewn insignia.

The photo was still an amazing step in the right direction. If we knew for sure the insignia was original that would be another. I would have far fewer doubts with a beret which had insignia that matched the period, and did not have the Heer unit marking and depot stamp.

[billbert]

If some old head collector might want to look through there mid 80 s manions foxhole catalogue.. a blue cover a little thicker than the others..after the 3rd reich insignia book was done ron sold his EXTENSIVE private insignia collection..dont racall maybe one in there..I do recall the meyer eagle and cockade..Billbert

[Mike Bollow]

This beret issue is absolutely NEW territory. Everybody should look at it with an open mind. Having strong reservations about it is SMART and CAUTIOUS... but eliminating the possibility that it's geniune is not intelligent.

MB

ADDITIONAL COMMENT: I was asked privately if I believed in the beret and if would buy it. My answer is that I am not knowledgable enough to say for sure. To be honest... are any of us? It's a NEW item that no one has seen before. Some doubted the LW even used berets, then the pics come out. Some doubted the insignia, then the book reference comes out. I simply think it's more fun to be positive about this and hope a brand new find has appeared than be negative. That's just my opinion.

[Chris]

This beret issue is absolutely NOT new territory. I remember discussing them and their existence and construction issues in the early 1970's, some 35 years ago, and looking at many of the same photos. I first saw the photo (of the guy wearing one) which I posted here in the mid-80's. I, too, have been asked privately whether I would own the beret in question, and I personally would not. I think it's a Heer beret which somebody has added Luftwaffe insignia to in the late 60's or early 70's.

I agree with Willi's assessment that if the Luftwaffe acquired panzer berets from an army source to equip a few hundred HG men, which sourcing theory this particular beret represents, then the wool beret portions would have come with the crash helmet portions, and the insignia would be hand-sewn, particularly at this early date. I think somebody who did not carefully study hand- vs. machine-sewing chronology in Luftwaffe headgear put this eagle on in a way they thought would be more convincing. In my own opinion, at least, they were mistaken in that decision. If it were hand-sewn, I'd be more inclined to believe it -- and value it at the price of a Heer panzer beret without any insignia.

[Glenn McInnes]

I think somebody who did not carefully study hand- vs. machine-sewing chronology in Luftwaffe headgear put this eagle on in a way they thought would be more convincing. In my own opinion, at least, they were mistaken in that decision. If it were hand-sewn, I'd be more inclined to believe it -- and value it at the price of a Heer panzer beret without any insignia.

Exactly!



Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

...the insignia would be hand-sewn, particularly at this early date.

I can't necessary agree with that.

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

I can't necessary agree with that.

B. N. Singer

I believe Chris means he would be more inclined to believe it if it were hand sewn.




Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

I believe Chris means he would be more inclined to believe it if it were hand sewn.




Glenn

Why?

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

Why?

B. N. Singer

I believe he addresses this in his above post.


I know your collecting standards Bryon and I don't believe for a minute that you think the insignia on this beret was applied during WW2.



Best,
Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

I believe he addresses this in his above post.


I know your collecting standards Bryon and I don't believe for a minute that you think the insignia on this beret was applied during WW2.



Best,
Glenn

Glenn, standards aside (especially mine, but with my appreciation for your comment) I think there could be confusion in what "normally" took place at a factory production setting (in the early stages) to what might have been done at a company/unit level.

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

I think there could be confusion in what "normally" took place at a factory production setting (in the early stages) to what might have been done at a company/unit level.

B. N. Singer

If done at a factory or at company/unit level I would certainly think it unlikely that this insignia would be sewn in this fashion,over done crude machine sewing,and if done at company/unit level why would it be sewn to try and copy Luftwaffe factory type sewing?.It just makes no sense to me.

I have only ever seen this over done type sewing on items that were fake or restored post war.




With regards,
Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

If done at a factory or at company/unit level I would certainly think it unlikely that this insignia would be sewn in this fashion,over done crude machine sewing,and if done at company/unit level why would it be sewn to try and copy Luftwaffe factory type sewing?.It just makes no sense to me.

I have only ever seen this over done type sewing on items that were fake or restored post war.




With regards,
Glenn

It is only the comment of hand vs machine that I address.

It is most common to find army berets with hand sewn insignia, they were produced in a mass production setting with women sitting and hand sewing all day long.

All other things aside, at a unit/company level, I think it is within reason to contempt a tailor using a machine. In this case, the tailor could be tasked to sew numerous berets with insignia. Why would he not choose to expedite his job?

Best,
Bryon

[Glenn McInnes]

It is only the comment of hand vs machine that I address.



In this case, the tailor could be tasked to sew numerous berets with insignia. Why would he not choose to expedite his job?

Best,
Bryon

I would think machine sewing by a over exaggerated zig zag machine stitch would be very time consuming. Would it not be easier and faster to hand sew it or straight machine sewing? If zig zag then why so tight? It is certainly not the type of period sewing,whether by a factory or private tailor etc that I am accustomed to seeing,especially on the cockarde portion.


We can argue this all day long but I for one would never accept this piece as being untouched WW2 production.


Best,
Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

I would think machine sewing by a over exaggerated zig zag machine stitch would be very time consuming. Would it not be easier and faster to hand sew it or straight machine sewing? If zig zag then why so tight? It is certainly not the type of period sewing,whether by a factory or private tailor etc that I am accustomed to seeing,especially on the cockarde portion.


We can argue this all day long but I for one would never accept this piece as being untouched WW2 production.


Best,
Glenn

Glenn I am not choosing to argue. I only point out that "conventional" hand vs machine sewing (not the specific manner/style), in this particular case, should not necessarily be applied.

Best,
Bryon

[Glenn McInnes]

Glenn I am not choosing to argue. I only point out that "conventional" hand vs machine sewing (not the specific manner/style), in this particular case, should not necessarily be applied.

Best,
Bryon

Oh yes,I certainly agree that a machine or sewn by hand could very well have been used. It is the manner or rather the method of sewing that I don't like.



Best,
Glenn