H.G. Panzer Beret

[Willi Z.]

Very interesting images. The beret in the shot posted by Chris would seem to have embroidered insignia.

Yes, it appears to be standard cap insignia, perhaps in black. Great photos!

[Leroy]

The photo I posted is not dated, but the other soldiers in the line-up do not appear to be wearing breast eagles on their fliegerblusen, so I suppose this would date it in the 1939-40 period.

There are at least two photographers visible, busily snapping away, in the full photo, so one could hope that additional photos exist of this ceremony.

[tgn]

Calling all collectors, is there such a photo???

Tom

Wow, what a great source of knowledge this forum is. "Ask and ye shall receive"

Tom

[Bob Hritz]

In the photo Leroy posted, there are no Heer wreaths on the berets. That would rule out Heer berets.

Bob Hritz

[billbert]

Lots more funner than coins and stamps eh?? great post!! Billbert

[Glenn McInnes]

Great photos indeed....In fact exactly the type of insignia that I would expect to see used in Chris Masons photo.





Glenn

[B. N. Singer]

The one this guy was in apparently.

One must admit the fact of photograpic evidence is a "step" in a positive direction.

B. N. Singer

[Homer Hodge]

Once again, the forum proves to be a great educational tool! The two posted photos establish that there were berets with LW insignia. I found the photo from Otte's book in both the English and Deutsch editions.

[BobI]

I am not sure about this, but was this from the John Coy collection?
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Chris]

A couple of posts on this thread seem to suggest that the 1970's was the dawn of German collecting. In other words, it is suggested that the beret must be original because it turned up way back in the 1970's.

Gentlemen, by the 1970's, German collecting as a hobby was already 30 years old. People were collecting this stuff avidly while the war was still being fought, and as one Life Magazine article during the war shows, reproductions were already widely and commercially available in 1944.

There are no new debates in this hobby, there are only new people to the debates. Issues like whether there were Luftwaffe panzer berets, Luftwaffe panzer badges, and SS Fallschirmjaeger cufftitles were being discussed by learned collectors way before my time, in the 1950's.

There just wasn't an internet, so it all happened at shows, and by using a type of correspondence they called "letters," which were pieces of paper with writing on them which they sent using things called stamps. Some of these walking encyclopedias, like Ray E, and Charlie H., are still sought out by wise men today for their knowledge. This forum is a great tool, but one of its drawbacks is that by its very nature, it changes our fundamental relationship to that knowledge, such that every question becomes a new question, to be debated and answered as if for the first time. It is rewriting not just the history of our knowledge, but the history of our artifacts.

[Bob Hritz]

I am not sure about this, but was this from the John Coy collection?
Best Wishes,
Bob

That would be correct.

bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

I started collecting in the early 1960s. Of course, written amd mailed letters were the norm and exchange of information was kept in files and personal notebooks.

I do recall collecting many complete fakes because there was no references and my knowledge only increased by the use of a Xerox machine and Poloroid Land Camera; those images mailed back and forth with other collectors.

Once I was able to know what originals looked like, I was embarrassed by the ridiculous fakes that I had bought and traded for. They were not close to the originals and by the late 1960s, firms such as WWII Products (St. Louis, Missouri) and Delta International (California) were putting out large catalogues of fake material, scattered with some common originals. However, the fake material was laughable, compared to originals. It was also available in large quantity and readily available in catalogues for years after 'introduction'.

If there had been internet instant communication, 40+ years ago, many of the questions suffered today would have been easily answered. It was not until the mid 1980s that I saw really high quality fakes being intruduced into the hobby. This corresponded with the increasing value of collectible militaria and an entire industry, active until this very moment, was built to deceive collectors.

Now, to the beret in question: there was little information when this piece surfaced. The value was lower than a Heer beret because few knew (to include myself) that such a beret was ever worn. Pioneers. like John Coy, were the early researchers and correspondants with such notables as George Peterson, who searched for original source material on Third Reich material. John had a private museum which he was happy to share with all interested parties. He had no desire to fool anyone and was a collector deep to the bone.

I cannot speak for the history of the beret, before John got it, but can attest to it being in his collection for decades. I know John loved unusual and rare headgear, long before anything that was not 'combat' or flashy was desireable.

Sadly, all militaria aside, John is well missed by all those who knew him and I was proud to have been called his friend. We all lost when John made his final adventure beyond this life.

Bob Hritz

[BobI]

Hi Bob!
Hi Bob!
My mind is a little loose at times but I think one of my friends spoke at length with John on how he acquired this piece. I will chat with him and see what he can tell me about it.
Best Wishes,
Bob

[Steve Sherlock]

I'm been fascinated by this thread - I'd never heard of a Luftwaffe Panzer beret, and the original photo posted by Chris Mason is outstanding. Since this piece has been around for a while, I suppose someone would have already noticed what I'm about to say, but here it goes. On the cover itself, I don't notice any trace of the spiral weaving which sould be fairly prominent, especially in post #10 I've owned a few Heer berets over the years, and so am familiar with good covers. Usually in the close-up photos there should be some indication of the spiral, but here there isn't. Can anyone comment?

Steve

[Richard P]

Steve,

I don't see the spiral weave in this tam either...unlike some others, I happen to know/believe that there are originals covers that do not have the spiral weave. In over 40 years I have seen a number of them, not nearly in the numbers as the woven types. I am sure there are plenty of collectors who disagree. I have no problem with those that cannot accept any but the spiral weave. It leaves a few more for me.

Jhodgson, thanks for clearing up the B II 40 marking, I should have known the definition I read was wrong, considering the source.

The photos of the berets in wear are great...I can't wait to see if Eric Queen can't get some others posted.

In my opinion I would be much more skeptical if someone popped up with an HG beret with the black HG eagle on it, as it is plentiful and available on a regular basis, and could now be sewn on in a manner that would meet even Glenn's approval.

Richard