H.G. Panzer Beret

[Willi Z.]

Unique indeed,and I keep asking myself is it in fact an original?
Glenn

That is the crucial question on the eagle.


So far everything that can be presented on the discussion of this beret can be very easily challenged (most don't seem to care though, which is really odd):

• There was no HG formation until mid-42 and then only a regiment until the HG Division was formed in 1943; up to then it was the RGG.
• There is some mention of the eagle being like one found on the Hermann Meyer cap; yes, it does appear similiar in style but the Meyer cap came out in 1942 and was discontinued in 1943.
• It does appear that there was Panzer Späh Zug as part of the 8th Kradschützen Kompanie which was part of the III. Wach Batallion of the RGG and was formed as of Oct. 1, 1937 (disbanded on Nov. 1, 1938 according to one source). So, at best we MAY have 4 armored cars for about 13 months and we think they may have made special eagles and put them on the '40 depot dated Heer beret? Where is the proof of that Zug using any armor? And, did they were any special uniform items during a timeframe when most units were just evolving? Certainly no HG wrap was worn then.
• The 13th Panzer Kompanie was first formed in late 1942. Assuming the Späh Zug existed and was disbanded in 1938 and no other armored formation appears to have existed between 1938 and 1942; how can we support what we see on this beret? Were Panzer berets still worn then?
• Why does the beret still have Heer depot and unit markings on a item adopted by the Luftwaffe? Why not cross them out and replace with the Luftwaffe unit? Can someone show me another uniform item used from that timeframe where this makes any sense?
• What about that cockade?
• Then there is the eagle application.
• Much of what I hear in it's favor is concerning it has been around since the '70s and was in a respected collection. Honestly, so what? I can easily show you fake FJ helmet covers from the '60s. All from collectors who swear by them. Could go on and on.

What do we know for sure? We have an original Heer Panzer beret with a Heer depot marking and Heer Panzer unit marking.

Too many extremely weak "what ifs" for any collector I know who would have that kind of $$ to throw around without being absolutely certain in what they were buying. The same hold true if it were half the price, if not less. Only my opinions.

[Glenn McInnes]

Boy, you are really a suspicious fellow. First you say the eagle was probably commonly found in the 70's when the beret was first unearthed. That didn't gain much traction with us old folks because we know this is not one seen then or now. So now it must be fake???



Tom

Yes Tom,I am a suspicious fellow....What I said was IF these type eagles are original then maybe some were found back in the 70's and applied to this beret.Were you everywhere,at every show in the 1970's?

As far as them being fake,well I can't answer that.

Being that this beret was found in the 70's means absolutely nothing to me as well,some fancy sewing going on back then as well I do believe.

Willi's comments above,for me make perfect sense when judging such an item as this.



Glenn

[Mike C]

The question that comes to my mind is: how many, if any, Heer panzer soldiers were transferred into RGG/HG to form the panzer component? I believe that this was not uncommon and, if so, would this be a transferred soldier's beret? More to the point, is there any evidence of previous Heer insignia?

I am as skeptical as the next, however I have seen too many honest pieces, with cast iron pedigree, that would have, in and of themselves, been dismissed as obvious fakes.

Mike

[B. N. Singer]

That is the crucial question on the eagle.


So far everything that can be presented on the discussion of this beret can be very easily challenged (most don't seem to care though, which is really odd):

• There was no HG formation until mid-42 and then only a regiment until the HG Division was formed in 1943; up to then it was the RGG.
• There is some mention of the eagle being like one found on the Hermann Meyer cap; yes, it does appear similiar in style but the Meyer cap came out in 1942 and was discontinued in 1943.
• It does appear that there was Panzer Späh Zug as part of the 8th Kradschützen Kompanie which was part of the III. Wach Batallion of the RGG and was formed as of Oct. 1, 1937 (disbanded on Nov. 1, 1938 according to one source). So, at best we MAY have 4 armored cars for about 13 months and we think they may have made special eagles and put them on the '40 depot dated Heer beret? Where is the proof of that Zug using any armor? And, did they were any special uniform items during a timeframe when most units were just evolving? Certainly no HG wrap was worn then.
• The 13th Panzer Kompanie was first formed in late 1942. Assuming the Späh Zug existed and was disbanded in 1938 and no other armored formation appears to have existed between 1938 and 1942; how can we support what we see on this beret? Were Panzer berets still worn then?
• Why does the beret still have Heer depot and unit markings on a item adopted by the Luftwaffe? Why not cross them out and replace with the Luftwaffe unit? Can someone show me another uniform item used from that timeframe where this makes any sense?
• What about that cockade?
• Then there is the eagle application.
• Much of what I hear in it's favor is concerning it has been around since the '70s and was in a respected collection. Honestly, so what? I can easily show you fake FJ helmet covers from the '60s. All from collectors who swear by them. Could go on and on.

What do we know for sure? We have an original Heer Panzer beret with a Heer depot marking and Heer Panzer unit marking.

Too many extremely weak "what ifs" for any collector I know who would have that kind of $$ to throw around without being absolutely certain in what they were buying. The same hold true if it were half the price, if not less. Only my opinions.

Is that an "I don't care for it" Willi??

B. N. Singer

[Glenn McInnes]

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on it Bryon.





Glenn

[tgn]

Is that an "I don't care for it" Willi??

B. N. Singer

Bryon, I would say that Willi is a very careful thoughful collector, as is Glenn. They both want to own with confidence that the item is original. And with today's prices, I don't blame them, and I do exactly the same. And lets' face it, how many or us are in any position to purchase this beret at the price quoted?

However, I fear too many items on this forum are dismissed as bad based on group opinions. If it ain't textbook, it can't be real. Well, in this case, there is no such thing as a textbook Luftwaffe beret. None were factory produced and will not have all the warm fuzzzies that we want the item to have to show that it is real. Without photgraphic evidence, we can't be sure they ever even made a Luftwaffe beret. But if they did, I bet the number was only a handful.

I only know that this beret surfaced without much fanfare 40 years ago. No great amount was paid for it. It sat quietly in a collection since then. Now it resurfaces with 40 years of added knowledge, and the worst we can say is the insignia insn't sewn the way we think it should be. I'd say that is pretty convincing that it is probably good, but then we will likely never know "for sure"...

Tom

[B. N. Singer]

...Without photgraphic evidence, we can't be sure they ever even made a Luftwaffe beret...
Tom

Then I take it that, unlike the SS berets, there is NO war time picture of a Luft beret!?!?

B. N. Singer

[tgn]

Then I take it that, unlike the SS berets, there is NO war time picture of a Luft beret!?!?

B. N. Singer

That waits to be seen...Tom

[B. N. Singer]

That waits to be seen...Tom

Do I take that as a No, up to this period in time?

B. N. Singer

[tgn]

Do I take that as a No, up to this period in time?

B. N. Singer

Calling all collectors, is there such a photo???

Tom

[billbert]

I would bet that somewhere out there a studio portrait exists of a LW soldat in this unique wrapper beret combo..Billbert

[derka]

hello gents,
realy a very interesting discussion.
just my 2 cents :
beret's production was stoped in 1941,
and it seems there was no armored LW units wearing black pz suits before 1942.
hence it is logical to think that black berets for LW were never produced,
wich means that one with LW insignias should have been initialy an army one.
but the wearing or use of beret in 1942 and later is pretty rare,
and this practice was IMHO done ONLY by men who received their beret before production ended;
as this item was not distributed anymore (and converted with fur cover for instance) in 1942.
so IF there is no evidence of previous Heer insignias mount on this beret,
then it would means than some berets were produced "naked" ?
i don't know what was done on this particular point.
i don't understand how a beret with "1/ /Pz.R./III" stamp could have been worn during a period, in a Heer unit, but without insignias, before LW ones were applied.
derka

[Chad1]

berets

Look, if you can't even find a period picture of it, it almost certainly wasn't used in any numbers.

Even if it was period made, it might have been a period made costume for a play, who knows. In which case, it wouldn't be worth very much...at least to me.

I guess that's what it means to collect the super^3 rare, you're really walking the line between an awesome artifact, and a curiosity.

[Eric Queen]

Calling all collectors, is there such a photo???

Tom

I have seen a hand full (of copies) of original photos of the beret being worn. I have held them in my hand. A very well respected collector owns them (the copies). Unfortunately they are not studio images and I don't recall (it has been many years) if the images are clear enough to make a definative determination as to the type of Lw. eagle being worn, only that they are indeed Lw. eagles and Lw. personnel. I just spoke with him on the phone and he is going to bring them with him when he comes out here mid next month and I will take a better look then.

EQ

[Mike Davis]

Well period photos clearly showing LW eagles being worn on berets would be very interesting indeed. I don't recall ever having seen same. Will look forward with anticipation....