Let's Review: Clemens Wagner Logos & Characteristics

[nonameno]

Hello JT,
I agree with NTZ. Notice too that the dates do not match. I too have seen sweatbands with multiple stampings, and where the date on the sweatband didn't match the sweatshield. Not everything was done with the intention of satisfying the mind of a collector in 60 years from manufacture. If you don't like the caps, fine. Let it go.
Thanks,
Curtiss

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hello JT,
I agree with NTZ. Notice too that the dates do not match. I too have seen sweatbands with multiple stampings, and where the date on the sweatband didn't match the sweatshield. Not everything was done with the intention of satisfying the mind of a collector in 60 years from manufacture. If you don't like the caps, fine. Let it go.
Thanks,
Curtiss

Hi Curtiss,

I'm actually trying to prove that Wagner did use reverse of sweatband stamps, by actually showing it. By doing this I am ultimately helping anyone with a cap marked as such, like yourself.

Notice that the stamp I have shown proves that Wagner used them on their contract caps.

I have nothing to let go of as I am trying, using available data, to prove your cap is genuine although I am struggling at the moment.

Nick's view from what I can gather by his reply to my post, is actually to agree with what I have said above about the second picture. To recap, what I said,here it is again:

"1 sweatband supplier, the other the cap maker? you decide my heads hurting

What this means is that I know the band is genuine and that I am stating that 1 stamp shows where the band came from "Wagner", the other is the firm who then used it in "their" cap, Bangert.

Using this data, I have proved that Wagner did date stamp their sweatbands on some caps, I just can't authenticate your stamp yet. But rest assured, I will not sleep until I can prove yours is genuine. "I work 12 hour shifts in my day job and spend most of it surfing German caps, so sooner or later I will find one with another date. Ultimately, I have nothing else to do where I ply my trade.

J T

[nonameno]

Hello JT,
You are right. I apologize if my response sounded less that positive.
You are certainly raising valid questions, and pursuing them well.
The fakers should indeed be concerned with your keen eyes on watch.
Thank you,
Curtiss

[stonemint]

This is from a Franky Reichsleiter visor--at least the s/b appears original!:

[solo]

Just come back from holidays!!!!!!!
This an interesting discussion,I don't want to be on a side or an another,just my small experience.
I have a very nice pionier CW with a different logo but in every part a textbook one.It retains the spring but it is not oxided is like new.
Here it is,hope it can helps

logo close up,it's stamped on the lining

logo that JT mentioned on the sweatband

it's reverse and the matirial that NTZ noticed between the sewat and the visor

[solo]

Now some different logos i think for Clemens Wagner

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hi Guy's, I'm still working on these caps and just can't get something figured out.

Solo has posted a wonderful cap on his return from his holiday

Welcome back Carlo

Carlo's cap is beautiful and after looking at the stunning cap in Carlo's excellent pictures I noticed something that I missed before on the mint Lufty's and the green piped Army cap.

I forgot that CW used the same sweatband attachment method in their stirn# system that erel did.

This being tight stitches right next to the reed rod. Carlo's shows this to a tee. The workmanship is fantastic.

Carlo's pic again showing what I mean

[sturmbannfuhrer]

On the lufty version, not sure who's this one is, the stitching is all over the place.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Here it is on another...

The lines eminating from the bottom right show where the stitches are, whilst the lines eminating from the top left, show where these stitches should actually be..

Is this right?

[sturmbannfuhrer]

I don't know what to make of these stitches as they are not like the ones I have owned which are all slap bang on the reed rod.

Stonemint and NTZ this is a job for you guys, I can't answer this one any further, what do you guys think about this stitching.

I've found another side cap with an oval stamp, this time on a DAK sidecap

[stonemint]

JT, I applaud your fastidious eye for detail, but I am still not convinced that they are bad.

Lets add the LW White-top logo to this thread:

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hi Chris, I so much wanted those Lufty visors to be real, but was stunned to compare the stitching as previously shown.

The materials look great, but the workmanship in the stitching is just not there, in the critical, tightspot of the reed rod attachment. I would say that this is an area where highly trained staff were active and the sewing machine needed would have had to have been the dogs bollocks.

One thing always drummed into us about German Headgear is the quality of the workmanship. These are the first Clemens Wagner's that I have ever seen, that have sloppy stitching on the reed rod attached sweatband system.

Do we change a philosophy on German Workmanship, or do we stick to the beliefs that Clemens Wagner was a quality maker that may have compromised on materials when in short supply, but not on the quality of the sewing workmanship.

It looks like the sewing machinist lost control in the pics I posted. The thread is in the wrong place for the reed rod attachment.

I was starting to believe in these until I compared Carlo's stunning mint visor to the Lufty's, which in my opinion, should have the thread in the same target area next to the reed rod.

I am now giving up on trying to prove to myself that these Lufty visors are OK as I no longer think I can be comfortable about them due to this workmanship issue.

I am kicking myself for not noticing this before.

Owners of them will be pleased to know that I am moving back to other things, but for your own piece of mind, look at every Clemens Wagner you can that is not one of these and compare that stitch work, you can make your own minds up from your findings.

best regards

J T

[giorgio]

Hi JT,
I think, if each cap is made with stitches "exactly" and "perfectly" in the same place.........it means that are not handmade, but it has been used a computer-machine, and maybe I'd have doubts about............we're talking of handmade stitches made by a man/women with a stitching-machine in 1/2 mm space.......I can't think that every workman had the same level of ability.......if we should get off a cap only 'cause a stitch is 0,50 mm lower or higher we'll stop to collect....but I think we have to look at the material used and the "method" of construction comparing several caps.........
The Carlo's one is a wonderul cap made by an older workman full of experience.................(hope you understand....technical speeches in English.... ....)
After having seen other examples and the kind of material used now I believe the Luft caps are good..........
Warmest regards
Giorgio

[nonameno]

Hi JT,
The bottom line with collecting is, you have to be comfortable with your decisions. I have been playing for over 35 years, and I have seen some perfect German workmanship, and some that was very sloppy indeed. To label everything from Germany as having to be pefect workmanship is a little naive to say the least.
But, the real point here, is that the reproductions have come to a point, whether real, or imagined, that now we question every shadow, and there is an expert around every corner. Some of these visor caps require a great deal of hand work, others can be mass produced, and there are easy to spot. I have not seen real quality bullion work yet, especially Luftwaffe eagles. If all of these Luftwaffe officer visor caps were reproductions, why do they not all have the same liners, sweatbands, and insignia? I appreciate research.
I will sleep just fine tonight, thank you.
Thank you all for your participation and research,
Curtiss

[juvatwad]

Here is one more detail that I believe supports these as legit: Notice there is no in on the thread where it passes through the oval stamp. This indicates the stamp was placed on the band prior to construction. I would think a faker would likely put the stamp on afterward.