Let's Review: Clemens Wagner Logos & Characteristics

[stevezz1]

Just to elaberate on Curtiss's point.

Below is an example of a C W that I was offered last year that is mint, looks quite flimsy and has a load of stuff on it that I don't like personally. I turned it down.

The point with this one is it looks mint and unissued, yet has an Initial metal stud on it, looks like it had 2 but the other is missing. Believe me, this one has no place on this cap I am showing. It has no wear at all if you see the other pics I was sent.

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Hi Jol,
The Admin visor was mine and although it now belongs to another forum member i feel i have to defend it.
Just to remind you here is my email to you and your reply......

Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:45:40 EDT
Subject: Visor cap for sale


Hi Jol,
I have a very nice Clemens Wagner Administration visor for sale but i am unsure what price to put on it, i was hoping you could give me some guidance or, if you are interested, purchase it yourself.
I have to part with this one to help pay for two others that are on their way to me.... :-(
Here is the thread on WAF regarding the cap spring tag -
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219442
There is one very small moth nip to the top of the cap otherwise i think it is a superb example, nice shape and good condition.
Please let me know what you think.

Many thanks,
Steve..
stevezz1 WAF

your reply.....

Hi Steve,
It is a nice visor, I remember Chris's thread when he posted it.
It is a difficult area to price the admin visors as they are not high on the list for standard cap collectors, more of a cap for advance collectors picking up all waffenfarbes.
I recently sold my Pekuro admin visor which was in very good condition for £450.00 sterling. Your Clemens Wagner is mint, the only problem for pricing is the dunkelgruen piping.
To be honest, I would aim to sell this sort of cap for around the £550.00 sterling mark, initially pricing it at £600.00 on the site to gauge any interest. It best point is its mintness, as you know this can force a collector to forget the dark green and buy, but this often takes time.
To me, purely for business, this cap would be around £400 to £425 as a buy in. This probably isn't what you want to here, it is just the dark green being a harder colour traditionally in the market place to shift.
best regards
JT Rea

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You seem to have changed your mind.......
This cap has been endorsed by NTZ on two occasions, the above link regarding cap spring tags and on another forum where he showed the logo/sweatshield as a good original example.
When i first offered this cap for sale there was a great deal of interest from other members but the general opinion was that the price was a bit high and the exchange rate with the $ did not help.
These people will now be thinking 'wow, glad i didn't buy that!' - and the new owner, if he believes your views (i do not) is probably pretty pissed off......
Also the guys that were interested will now think i sell dodgy caps....!!
Not very good for my reputation as an open and honest forum member.

You state in your email that Admin caps are not the most sought after farbe, everyone knows that, so why would someone produce a fake one. It does not make sense.

The interior of the cap does show some very minor use/staining (remember you have not actually seen this cap) so i see no reason why there should not be any inititial studs and the missing one could have been lost anytime in the last sixty years......And the cap build/construction is far from 'flimsy'.

I am in no way a visor 'expert' but i am sure this C/W Admin visor is authentic and original and i believe you are wrong on this one.

But then, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Best regards,
Steve.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

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Hi Jol,
The Admin visor was mine and although it now belongs to another forum member i feel i have to defend it.
Just to remind you here is my email to you and your reply......

Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:45:40 EDT
Subject: Visor cap for sale


Hi Jol,
I have a very nice Clemens Wagner Administration visor for sale but i am unsure what price to put on it, i was hoping you could give me some guidance or, if you are interested, purchase it yourself.
I have to part with this one to help pay for two others that are on their way to me.... :-(
Here is the thread on WAF regarding the cap spring tag -
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219442
There is one very small moth nip to the top of the cap otherwise i think it is a superb example, nice shape and good condition.
Please let me know what you think.

Many thanks,
Steve..
stevezz1 WAF

your reply.....

Hi Steve,
It is a nice visor, I remember Chris's thread when he posted it.
It is a difficult area to price the admin visors as they are not high on the list for standard cap collectors, more of a cap for advance collectors picking up all waffenfarbes.
I recently sold my Pekuro admin visor which was in very good condition for £450.00 sterling. Your Clemens Wagner is mint, the only problem for pricing is the dunkelgruen piping.
To be honest, I would aim to sell this sort of cap for around the £550.00 sterling mark, initially pricing it at £600.00 on the site to gauge any interest. It best point is its mintness, as you know this can force a collector to forget the dark green and buy, but this often takes time.
To me, purely for business, this cap would be around £400 to £425 as a buy in. This probably isn't what you want to here, it is just the dark green being a harder colour traditionally in the market place to shift.
best regards
JT Rea

-------------------------------------------

You seem to have changed your mind.......
This cap has been endorsed by NTZ on two occasions, the above link regarding cap spring tags and on another forum where he showed the logo/sweatshield as a good original example.
When i first offered this cap for sale there was a great deal of interest from other members but the general opinion was that the price was a bit high and the exchange rate with the $ did not help.
These people will now be thinking 'wow, glad i didn't buy that!' - and the new owner, if he believes your views (i do not) is probably pretty pissed off......
Also the guys that were interested will now think i sell dodgy caps....!!
Not very good for my reputation as an open and honest forum member.

You state in your email that Admin caps are not the most sought after farbe, everyone knows that, so why would someone produce a fake one. It does not make sense.

The interior of the cap does show some very minor use/staining (remember you have not actually seen this cap) so i see no reason why there should not be any inititial studs and the missing one could have been lost anytime in the last sixty years......And the cap build/construction is far from 'flimsy'.

I am in no way a visor 'expert' but i am sure this C/W Admin visor is authentic and original and i believe you are wrong on this one.

But then, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Best regards,
Steve.

Hi Steve, I was just trying to remember you, then I did, your the guy who doesn't like the imperial REAL silver cap cords.

As I also remember, you were very keen to offload that visor of yours.

Anyway, there is nothing unusual about changing ones mind. My email comment is purely a business view of your cap's saleability, not it's originality, from a quick cursory GLANCE AT IT when you emailed me the pics, once I'd had the chance to have a good look, I changed my mind, hence the reason it was still with you after our emails concluded.

I knew you wanted a lot more than what I was offering and my experience in this business is, don't tell someone his stuff is duff unless you have to, offer him a lot less and he'll take it somewhere else. I have had to tell several people last Sunday that their stuff was wrong because it was a face to face.

The proof of the pudding here is that I didn't renegotiate an upped offer to you. Once i'd had a good look at the pics and studied the thread from Chris futher, I changed my mind about it.

I too keep old emails, (this one in question of mine that you have posted goes back to "Sent: Sun, 29 Jul 2007 11:45:40 EDT", before I saw the current ones, but there was enough about your to make me back off), however I don't use them to call people out publicly on forums, when something occurs later on, that they don't like.

Now then. My opinion is that I have had a chance to really look into this issue and since seeing yours i've seen a few others.

One thing nobody likes is to be told their item is not right, so we approach it with kid gloves, using tact and unusually for some, some actual personal views, not others. The research material is there for all to see. You see enough, you get a good idea of what is about.

I do not really soley on other's opinions on forums or anywhere else, as ultimately, are they going to be receiving the brunt of any criticism if something turns out to be duff.

We are fortunate to have several top men here at our disposal, however, assumtion that someone is always right is the mother of all somethings.

I have had a really good look at all of these CW's that have been offered for scruitiny and they are all dated with that same sidecap stamp.

If you and the new owner are happy, then that is all that matters, personally as you have raised this with me, I don't like them.

If they turn out to be real, Hey i'm the loser. If they turn out to be not real, I'm not going to lose any kip over it.

I'd like to see more of these caps appear, but I'd like to see them with different dates in that stamp than the "standard" one that seems to be used.

Alas, I think that, without putting a wager on it, the only date stamp you will see will be the same one shown in this thread, OR, if we are really lucky, that one with the date stamp "masked" out and a different font size stamp, wonkily applied for that late war look..

What would be interesting is if any members have more of these tucked away that they don't want to post yet until a YES is given from the Man from Delmonte.

Ultimately, it will be interesting...... Have I ever bought a fake??? Hell Yes, did I learn from it.... Hell NO!

As a special treat, here is a Clemens Wagner that I know is real, it must be, as Gerard Stetzelberger said it was.. (Thanks Gerard )

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Before any one gets excited, this does have the Stirndrukfrei sweatband and yes, it is marked.

See how crisp that logo is, no bleed, no smudging, absolutley top of the pops and this cap's been worn would you believe!

How do I take my Clemens Wagners, I like them like this.

J T

[stevezz1]

"Hi Steve, I was just trying to remember you, then I did, your the guy who doesn't like the imperial REAL silver cap cords.

As I also remember, you were very keen to offload that visor of yours."

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Hi Jol,
Lol, yep. I just don't liike the look of the tarnish on those silver cords......
No accounting for taste, eh?

I would not say i was keen to 'offload' the Admin cap , i was keen to sell it to raise funds for two other caps i had purchased......Slightly different intonation i think.

All the best,
Steve.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Gents,

I've been attending to matters of state so to speak, (telly tube knackered) so was unable to post earlier.

as Steve pointed out, I too was initally romanced by the idea of mint Clem Wagner's, but as previously mentioned, became suspicious of these style ones.

What I have to offer is simple, the cap has it, so if you want to verify your own piece, all you have to do is the following, after the explanation that is.

These cap's all seem to be dated 1942. Well, we have a date point to start from.

2008 - 1942 = 66

Therefore, these caps are 66 years old.

Right, now for the science bit.

As you all know, metal oxidises over a period of years, it takes months in fact to be visable.

Now i am not a metallurgist, but the springs in the minty clems wagners, should exhibit 66 years worth of oxydisation and like the original spring I am currently grasping as I write, be pretty much rusty and pitted in places.

You guys have the option, to test your own caps, without wrecking them.

You even have a little handy tag to tug the bugger out.

Go on, give that little tag a little tug and expose the metal of the spring.

It should have 66 years worth of air exposure to it, but I reckon it will be shiny not new, but not 66 years old either.

Give it a go if you want piece of mind.

As a final point, to why forge an Admin cap, it's just my opinion and people take take their own views on this. Why forge an Admin?

I think it was supposed to be a Gebirsjager that didn't quite turn out right.

Still, you guys with the caps are the ones that have the key to the issue.

Post your findings.

J T

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Anyone looked at their cap spring finish yet?

[giorgio]

Hi JT......
on my luft I don't see any spring.......but it isn't a teller form..........
Now I've made a little damage on my cap....trying to see better the front stiffener I've torn off some frontal stitches... ....
But now it is possible to have a close look to the gauze, stiffener and band.....as soon as possible I'll take some pics and I'll post them.....
Warmest regards
Giorgio

[nonameno]

Hi JT,
No, I haven't torn my cap apart to see a metal stiffner. You expectations are false. The bands are not exposed to air. They are generally under the cloth and liner material. I have had them out from other visor caps, and some are shiney and new like (not exposed), and some are lightly oxidised (on caps which had seen a lot internal wear).
I am quite comfortable with the originality of my cap, and Giorgio's too. My sweatband shows age and wear consistent with the period of the cap. The fact that two caps have shown up with the same year is not alarming.
I appreciate your interest and pointing out areas of possible concern. If the fakers have gotten this good, it is time to retire from the hobby and plant flowers.
Thank you,
Curtiss

[NTZ]

Not that anyone cares but here is my take on both Giorgio’s & Curtiss’s caps. They are period pre-1945 caps. Giorgio’s shows every single trait of a true Clemens Wagner. That extra piece if material under the sweatband in front is textbook CW. They used it on visors with that type of sweatband. The lining appears to be consistent with mid war/later production caps in finish and weave. Now Curtiss’s cap has the exact same lining and shield. The only difference is the rollover band which Clemens Wagner certainly did use. In fact more so than the Erel type. Now on to the Stamp. I DON”T think this is an indication of the year made (although is could be) but a production run of sweatbands. I have seen a few contract Clemens Wagner’s in which the sweatband had a similar stamp. The date on one off the top of my head was 1938. Same stamp though just a different date with no month. How many caps have we seen that all have 1938 stamps in the sweatband? Many! They all could have not been made in 1938. Just like the H38 & HB38 marks. I have always felt they were just production runs of sweatband material. So I would put much more weight into that 1942 stamp being a production run of sweatband made for Clemens Wagner than I would a cap date. I am sure every month CW didn’t want to change stamps so they could mark the cap. They more than likely ordered the bands in huge bulk and they were marked at that time. JM2C

If these are indeed fakes than we are fu@ked because they got all the period materials correct.

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hi JT,
No, I haven't torn my cap apart to see a metal stiffner. You expectations are false. The bands are not exposed to air. They are generally under the cloth and liner material. I have had them out from other visor caps, and some are shiney and new like (not exposed), and some are lightly oxidised (on caps which had seen a lot internal wear).
I am quite comfortable with the originality of my cap, and Giorgio's too. My sweatband shows age and wear consistent with the period of the cap. The fact that two caps have shown up with the same year is not alarming.
I appreciate your interest and pointing out areas of possible concern. If the fakers have gotten this good, it is time to retire from the hobby and plant flowers.
Thank you,
Curtiss

Hi Curtiss,

I did't ask you or anyone else to tear your cap apart, that is a little strong to say the least. I was also refering to cap springs not stiffeners.

Additionally, we're getting into a whole different situation when you claim that a wrapped piece of metal is air tight. You'd need an air tight material to cover it. The material used in these caps is a weave so you will get air through it, you couldn't stop it.

The cloth breathes. The air circulates through it, therefore the metal inside it will oxidise it is a fact. You would be surprised at just how much air gets around things. You wrap something in a breathable material and moisture gets through it, especially if the item has been in a high humidity environment.

Now going away from mint, a heavily worn cap may have a spring that exbits rust, especially if they have been exposed to water.

You don't always have springs sewn in either, a lot are just hanging in their. Sattleform caps also have srings to keep their wonderful shape, not just tellerforms.



Now down to business, the cap I was refering to in my post "The Army Green One" that has been misread here by you Lufty boys, was this one shown below, the one with the white tag hanging out of it.

Hence me saying "it even has a handy tag, go on give it a pull", I did not see a tag on yours lads so I couldn't have been meaning your Luft's could I?

This is the spring I'd like to see, the one from the Green piped cap. You guys seem quite happy with your Luft's and that's fine if you like them. I'm more interested in the Green piped Army cap which used to be Steve's.



J T

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Here's another view of one, you can see the spring it is attached to, yank that spring out, you might be surprised!

The rest of the cap is discussed on the thread linked below:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=219442

If you like it buy one, if you don't like it, don't.

I don't like it so I didn't buy it...

Others may differ, but would they buy?

[derek]

Here is a small footnote regarding Clemens Wagner that I posted a while back. It adds an interesting piece of information to the Clemens Wagner story.
Derek
I cannot seem to make the link go through to the actual thread but it is titled the "Argo Logo Saga" for those interested.
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267122&referrerid=5230

[stonemint]

Not that anyone cares but here is my take on both Giorgio’s & Curtiss’s caps. They are period pre-1945 caps. Giorgio’s shows every single trait of a true Clemens Wagner. That extra piece if material under the sweatband in front is textbook CW. They used it on visors with that type of sweatband. The lining appears to be consistent with mid war/later production caps in finish and weave. Now Curtiss’s cap has the exact same lining and shield. The only difference is the rollover band which Clemens Wagner certainly did use. In fact more so than the Erel type. Now on to the Stamp. I DON”T think this is an indication of the year made (although is could be) but a production run of sweatbands. I have seen a few contract Clemens Wagner’s in which the sweatband had a similar stamp. The date on one off the top of my head was 1938. Same stamp though just a different date with no month. How many caps have we seen that all have 1938 stamps in the sweatband? Many! They all could have not been made in 1938. Just like the H38 & HB38 marks. I have always felt they were just production runs of sweatband material. So I would put much more weight into that 1942 stamp being a production run of sweatband made for Clemens Wagner than I would a cap date. I am sure every month CW didn’t want to change stamps so they could mark the cap. They more than likely ordered the bands in huge bulk and they were marked at that time. JM2C

If these are indeed fakes than we are fu@ked because they got all the period materials correct.

Nick, I was wondering where you were on this thread! As I stated early on, I believe them to be original (sorry, JT, we have to agree to disagree ).

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Nick, I was wondering where you were on this thread! As I stated early on, I believe them to be original (sorry, JT, we have to agree to disagree ).

That's what makes collecting this stuff the best

Discussion forums under the Maquis of Queensbury's rules

This thread has kept civil so we are all winners

[stevezz1]

Hi all,
I have only ever seen one cap spring but it was not pitted nor did have any sign of rust, as JT suggests an original one might/should have. Dull in colour, yes, but no more. This of course depends on what treatment the cap recieved during and post war.
I did not remove the spring from the Admin cap, i had no reason to.

But what about Erel vent bushes, the same should apply to them, if not more so.
But here are two that are as bright as buttons. I assume they are period caps, they do not belong to me.
Just an observation.

Steve.