Let's Review: Clemens Wagner Logos & Characteristics

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Now we are more accepting to superfakes, here is the front.

One thing to note is that fakers are realising Erel's are now more spotable, so move down the list to the next line of cap interest to cheat us out of our hard earned dough.

This is one of the biggest problems if you insist on collecting MINT 70 year old militaria. I am not too keen on MINT stuff, it can bite and bite bloody hard.


J T

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Some may say there is nothing wrong with the piece I have just shown. Fair enought. Start looking on this forum at Clemens Wagners, look real close and then look again at this cap.

Those sweatband underside ink stamps are from sidecaps, not visors. The only markings I like to see on a Clemens Wagner are on the die stamped front side with the stirndrukfrei type.

I have plenty of erel's with the pre DRGM marked sweatbands, none are ink stamped behind.

On a lighter note, I was shown an absolute howler of a CW SS General's visor at Yate on Sunday gone, that has the audacity to have chrome finished insignia attached.

The good thing was that it had a crappy plastic sweatshield

[giorgio]

Hi everyone.......
here we are with my CW LW cap........
Warmest regards
Giorgio

[sturmbannfuhrer]

First comment,

best photos I have seen on this forum for clarity nice camera work giorgio

What we need to decide here is did Wagner make this version of their Stirndrukfrei sweatband in 1942?

I have only seen these ones in these MINT caps. I have not seen one in an original.

With the stirndrukfrei system, the bands in my experience, were marked as such, like erel marked their DRGM number on theirs.

This feature onthe Wagner was a patent, so I expect it to be marked as such.

The under sweatband date stamp does seem superfelous and dated 1942 a mistake from whoever made it.

Note: We often see a MINT mid war cap... But mostly it is a rarity. Two the same starts the sweatglands going.

One last observation. The cap is nice and mint, however it has either water stains or sweatstains in the interior?

I hope to Christ that these can be proved ok as I think that there may be many more about to surface.

J T

[stonemint]

JT. there are a lot of mint V.A.d.LW visors floating around, and always has been, whether Erel, CW, or Halfar, and most are mid-late war models. It has always been my opinion that a depot was raided at war's end, and I can't believe they were all stored at the Puttkamer address--I would have to believe there were different distribution centers.

JT, the other thing I am having trouble following you on is the CW stirndruckfrei system on Giorgio's (who gets my award for the best photographer on the forum )--are you saying that it is the unmarked ones you have an issue with, or all CW stirndruckfrei systems?

[stonemint]

Comparison--nonameno's:

[stonemint]

Giorgio's:

[stonemint]

The 2 are exactly the same. The only difference is that Giorgio's has the Stirndruckfrei system, while nonameno's does not. After seeing Giorgio's, I believe both are wartime production, but I am open to other views.

NTZ, BenVK--wo bist du on this?

[stonemint]

The 2 carmine-piped "CW" visors in the foreground are definately fakes from the ground-up of recent vintage--

[Thorn]

Here is my C.W.

Thorn

[sturmbannfuhrer]

JT, the other thing I am having trouble following you on is the CW stirndruckfrei system on Giorgio's (who gets my award for the best photographer on the forum )--are you saying that it is the unmarked ones you have an issue with, or all CW stirndruckfrei systems?

Hi Chris, it's the unmarked ones I don't like.

On a 1942 made piece, my personal preference would have to be a marked sweatband as these systems were a patented system afterall.

The only unmarked one I have seen, are the type showcased in this thread.

I was offered the Army Admin officer's Mint cap that I have shown and I did not like it at all. 1942 was a good year for production, the cap looks lightweight to say the least.

I haven't handled the Lufty version yet, but I am expecting more of these Lufty's to surface at any time.

The point about the Lufty clothing stores being cleaned out at war's end is a good point. I would not expect these 1942 caps to have been in abundance at that time though. Especially when the late war caps are heavily in evidence in the world marketplace, these buggers being discussed would have been well used up by the time of the collapse.

Mind you, with all things militaria wise, anything is possible.

At the end of the day I suppose that if the current owner is comfortable with the cap, that is what matters.

Selling it on may or may not be a problem later.

We haven't seen the last of these, lets have a mass posting, a bit like one of those religious cult mass suicides.

If you have one of these, post it so we can get an idea of how many of these are out there and what variations are in existance.

I actually hope they are good as I do not like people being done for the green. I have been there and it is not a nice place to be.....

J T

[sturmbannfuhrer]

JT, the other thing I am having trouble following you on is the CW stirndruckfrei system on Giorgio's (who gets my award for the best photographer on the forum )--are you saying that it is the unmarked ones you have an issue with, or all CW stirndruckfrei systems?

Hi Chris, it's the unmarked ones I don't like.

On a 1942 date stamped piece, my personal preference would have to be a fully marked marked stirndrukfrei sweatband, with the impression on the visble face. These were a patented system after all and do we have erel's with their stirndruk system without the corresponding visible face sweatband marking?

The only unmarked ones I have seen, are the type showcased in this thread.

I was offered the Mint Army Admin officer's cap that I have shown in this thread and I did not like it at all. 1942 was a good year for production, the cap looks lightweight to say the least, more of a later war job than it's 1942 date stamp. If these had been stamped 1944 they would have had more of a chance in our hearts and minds.

I haven't handled the Lufty version of these yet, but I am expecting more of these to surface at any time.

The point about the Lufty clothing stores being cleaned out at war's end is a good point to make. I would not however, expect these 1942 caps to have been in abundance at that time though, especially when the late war caps are heavily in evidence today in the world marketplace, these buggers being discussed would have been well used up by the time of the collapse and subsequent pillage by our victorious trophy hunter grandpops.

Mind you, with all things militaria wise, anything is possible.

At the end of the day I suppose that if the current owner is comfortable with the cap, that is what matters.

Selling it on may or may not be a problem later.

We haven't seen the last of these, lets have a mass posting, a bit like one of those religious cult mass suicides, like the time David Koresh discovered his prized discussional pieces were not infact kosha.

If any of you guys out there have one of these from any branch, post it here so we can get an idea of how many of these are out there and what variations are in existance.

I actually hope they are good as I do not like people being done for the green. I have been there and it is not a nice place to be.....

J T

[nonameno]

Hello JT,
In one of your posts you mentioned that you did not like the CL date mark under the sweatband, that it was redundant and unnecessary and not seen on other makers. I disagree. I have eReL Luftwaffe officers visors which generally all do have a similar dating stamp on them under the leather sweatband.
The LW officer cap the Giorgio so nicely posted is very interesting, while it looks to have the same logo mark as mine, but has the stirndruckfrei sweatband system, without marking. Considering that the maker could be taking what ever parts are available, or made to order, this would seem reasonable. If they were being faked, would they all not be exact? As for your concern about seeing mint examples, there are hundreds of eReL's and other makers which were found left in warehouses in mint condition that were NOT just from 1944/45, but from all years of manufacturer. Stock was not replaced only after being used up. I have unissed tunics and visor caps from pre-war and early war.
I will try to take some additional pictures of the sweatband on mine as time permits, which may help illuminate the subject. Sadly, neither my eyes, my camera, nor my ability is as good as Giorgio's
Thank you,
Curtiss

[sturmbannfuhrer]

Hello JT,
In one of your posts you mentioned that you did not like the CL date mark under the sweatband, that it was redundant and unnecessary and not seen on other makers. I disagree. I have eReL Luftwaffe officers visors which generally all do have a similar dating stamp on them under the leather sweatband.
The LW officer cap the Giorgio so nicely posted is very interesting, while it looks to have the same logo mark as mine, but has the stirndruckfrei sweatband system, without marking. Considering that the maker could be taking what ever parts are available, or made to order, this would seem reasonable. If they were being faked, would they all not be exact? As for your concern about seeing mint examples, there are hundreds of eReL's and other makers which were found left in warehouses in mint condition that were NOT just from 1944/45, but from all years of manufacturer. Stock was not replaced only after being used up. I have unissed tunics and visor caps from pre-war and early war.
I will try to take some additional pictures of the sweatband on mine as time permits, which may help illuminate the subject. Sadly, neither my eyes, my camera, nor my ability is as good as Giorgio's
Thank you,
Curtiss

Hi Curtiss,

although I answered you PM, i'll do this one aswell.

I have seen date stamps under an Erel Luftqwaffe also. Only once and it was on a Privat that Ulric of England had for offer.


My issue with this date stamp is that it is the stamp used on CW sidecaps. Unusual to use it on a visor cap sweatband aswell when the liners are marked.

The other issue with this is that we have only seen 1942 dates so far on this mark. Why not other years. The more we disect it, the more interesting it gets. If we start seeing 1941, 1942, 1943, 1944 we might have something.

The Luftwaffe cap posted with the full roll over sweatband had this stamping modified. It didn't have the Month and Year it had a rather off centre 60, for size 60. The font was different, it looks just like the Month / Year has been masked out so a size number could be added later.

As per my PM, if you guys are happy to own these that is your choice.

I don't see myself buying one of these. As I said before in this thread, I was offered the Admin mint visor but did not like the look of it.

I prefer something like this, well used and there, that is my choice:

J T

[sturmbannfuhrer]

With this well used look, a Muller Admin, Combat worn later war? I'd like to think it was, they were afterall soldiers in pen pushing roles.

J T