Waffen SS Erel YELLOW piped Cavalry Officers Visor, ex MOLLO collection

[J C Gray]

[quote=SSTk;1991202]
As well, it comes from maybe THE top dealer in the UK quote]

Leaving the cap aside, I personally would not buy even the most common item from 'Baldric of England'! But that is just down to a few personal bad experiences with him...it's your money.

[NTZ]

A lot of times relined visors have the lining edges pulled down all the way to the cap base and even tucked in sometimes. It is so you can’t see the pasteboard on a quick look. My guess is that if you did get a good look at the pasteboard you will find one of two things. 1. An original black treated pasteboard with extra holes or 2. post war pasteboard in the wrong material like untreated cardboard. Erel also used a pretty distinctive peak stiffener. I would like to see if this one conforms to Lubstein production. They quickest check it to measure the cap size. The lining clearly states this cap is a size 56.

[Kreager]

That crooked sweatshield, hit me right from the start. Now that we can see all the liner issues (to many pleatt issues and empty holes) I'm feeling very uneasy about this one. Nick pointed out something interesting, and that is the front cushion issue. Not looking good

[NTZ]

I am dying to know what size the cap measures out at.

[DougB]

Thanks for the visor education gentlemen and what to be looking for. There is no cardboard materials or post war materials behind the liner as far as I can ascertain without causing damage during the inspection process.

Also this is my first purchase from this dealer and he came to me highly recommended by other collectors; some from this forum. Obviously not everyone will share that opinion and I should not have put in the comment about the dealer and his "rep" as each collector will form thier own opinion!

But that is why the artifact must stand up to scrutiny from the community on its own regardless whose collection the item has been in or the dealer the item came from.

The visor by the way does not measure exactly to a 56 but it is very close. I must also say though that I am using a small pliable ruler and not a fabric ruler. The unfolded pleat with no wear to me does it however , thanks NTZ for pointing that out and gaining a collector some valuable experience on some of the subleties to look for. It is the only way to learn by handling hands on.

This may still be a good one in a hands on inspection by someone with more experience than I. more comments welcome. cheers gents thanks for detailed look so far and sharing your experiences.

[Dave Kane]

Doug, these are all of the reasons why I asked for size and markings...

It's a simple 'test' and clearly suggests that a cap has been messed with. These high-end caps need this sort of evaluation as MANY are simply reupholstered Infantry caps.

Many date from approx. '78 through '84 when it became a matter of general knowledge among Cap collectors. The catch phrase was 'I'd never buy a high-end Erel' as these were the most commonly done.

[NTZ]

How close to 56cm is it? If it is off by .25 cm or more I would worry. The German cap makers were very, very accurate. I would give or take .25 for stretching or shrinkage.

[Robert H]

to get it right with the metric system .25cm is very exotic. NTZ means 2.5mm.

[NTZ]

to get it right with the metric system .25cm is very exotic. NTZ means 2.5mm.

Hey I am American, what can I say.

[Dave Kane]

Hey I am American, what can I say.

I'm a bit concerned now Nick....don't you work with NUMBERS???

[Bill D.]

Doug, these are all of the reasons why I asked for size and markings...

It's a simple 'test' and clearly suggests that a cap has been messed with. These high-end caps need this sort of evaluation as MANY are simply reupholstered Infantry caps.

Many date from approx. '78 through '84 when it became a matter of general knowledge among Cap collectors. The catch phrase was 'I'd never buy a high-end Erel' as these were the most commonly done.

The fake caps go back much, much farther, to around 1946, when the Germans realized that the American troops doing occupation duty were just as hungry for "combat souvenirs" as had been their predecessors.

I have owned two "occupation" caps. One was a Heer General Officer's cap; the other was a pink piped Waffen SS officer's cap. On the latter, the cap maker (most likely one of the original producers) had used an original visor, an original officer cap cord, and original silver SS insignia. Aside from showing very litle use, the cap was a stunningly close example made by a craftsman. Today that cap would be nearly as old as an original, and very close to an original in terms of construction, materials, and workmanship.

I knew a collector in about 1978 who also had a very impressive Allgemeine SS officer visor that, he was thrilled to say, was "vet aquired".
But it had some very small problems, not glaring, but just some small evidence of a few shortcuts if you knew what to look for. As it turned out, it was indeed "vet aquired", but in making further inquiries of the veteran my friend learned that the "vet" had been stationed in Germany in the early 1950's. The veteran had purchased the cap from a local german in a quest for souvenirs to bring home. At that time a cap was a cap, and those G.I.'s were not looking for quadrant lines or pencilled sizes. And decades later those caps started to surface.

A very difficult field in which to collect.

[NTZ]

I'm a bit concerned now Nick....don't you work with NUMBERS???

No one said I was good at it.

[NTZ]

The fake caps go back much, much farther, to around 1946, when the Germans realized that the American troops doing occupation duty were just as hungry for "combat souvenirs" as had been their predecessors.

I have owned two "occupation" caps. One was a Heer General Officer's cap; the other was a pink piped Waffen SS officer's cap. On the latter, the cap maker (most likely one of the original producers) had used an original visor, an original officer cap cord, and original silver SS insignia. Aside from showing very litle use, the cap was a stunningly close example made by a craftsman. Today that cap would be nearly as old as an original, and very close to an original in terms of construction, materials, and workmanship.

I knew a collector in about 1978 who also had a very impressive Allgemeine SS officer visor that, he was thrilled to say, was "vet aquired".
But it had some very small problems, not glaring, but just some small evidence of a few shortcuts if you knew what to look for. As it turned out, it was indeed "vet aquired", but in making further inquiries of the veteran my friend learned that the "vet" had been stationed in Germany in the early 1950's. The veteran had purchased the cap from a local german in a quest for souvenirs to bring home. At that time a cap was a cap, and those G.I.'s were not looking for quadrant lines or pencilled sizes. And decades later those caps started to surface.

A very difficult field in which to collect.

I am so glad someone else talked about this. It is the basis of my theory regarding some caps that are accepted as pre 1945. My grandfather spent time on occupation duty right after the war. He told me similar stories. For a few packs of cigarettes, money or candy you could have the local tailor cobble together a generals uniform if that is what you wanted.

[DougB]

That is exactly why the words "vet aquired" mean nothing to me with regards to authenticity. Provenance must be more than those 2 words which I dont think most serious collectors take seriously anymore either.

The measurement is slightly greater than 2.5mm (its ok us Canucks have used metric for 25 years... ), but again I stress I didnt use a tailors tape. The quadrant marks align perfectly to the seams, there are no postwar materials that I can tell. A lot of good things about this visor that maybe more experienced eyes/hands would have a better comfort level than I on a visor like this at this time. Too bad for me!...

Again - I sure appreciate the input gents.

[NTZ]

Take a peak where the sweatband ends meet. Pull them apart a bit and see if you can see two sets of wear marks. It is not a must for a put together cap but you will not see it on an untouched.