DAK overseas cap w/soutache

[Mark Gibson]

Tim,
I just had a look at the cap which you mentioned. I have to say it is the shiniest soutache that I have ever seen and also looks to be hand stitched. If this is the cap in question I think that we can all have a look and probably come to the same conclusion...post war addition.
Chris' suspicions of any Nov '42 soutached caps could be quite well founded if this one is a typical example.

Mark

[B. N. Singer]

That kind of seam is used to tailor the jacket to the chest to ensure a better fit. Often see on WW2 British battledress that has been altered to ensure a better fit. So it was a technique that was known in the period. I cannot say I have seen it on a German uniform before though. Not sure why a tailor made garment, if that is what it is, would need it? Interesting thread.
Cheers, Ade.

Nor have I Ade, and thank you for the information.

And Bob, to my eyes (old and tired as they are) it still appears to be a seam of the garment.

B. N. Singer

[John Hodgin]

Nor have I Ade, and thank you for the information.

And Bob, to my eyes (old and tired as they are) it still appears to be a seam of the garment.

B. N. Singer

As usual, I have to agree with Mr. Singer. While on the other two tunics there are clearly folds at the shoulders. On the tunic in the center this area appears to be flat, not folded, and have a seam that is symetrical on both sides.

Regardless, there is likely no way to know for sure, and all theory is merely just that; conjecture.
John

[90th Light]

As usual, I have to agree with Mr. Singer. While on the other two tunics there are clearly folds at the shoulders. On the tunic in the center this area appears to be flat, not folded, and have a seam that is symetrical on both sides.

Regardless, there is likely no way to know for sure, and all theory is merely just that; conjecture.
John

Hello John, the area on the other (viewers left) shoulder which you have circled in red could well be the edge of the collar could it not ?

You use the word "conjecture", well the only slight evidence in this photo is the possible seam in the shoulder and the speculation of the tunic being tailor made. On the other hand what can not be denied is that this is a third model tropical tunic, they are wearing soutaches on their caps, the date is verified as November 1942 and that unit is going to North Africa. There is no defective evidence on those points in this debate,

With respect, Chris

[John Hodgin]

On the other hand what can not be denied is that this is a third model tropical tunic, they are wearing soutaches on their caps, the date is verified as November 1942 and that unit is going to North Africa.
With respect, Chris

Also with respect, only in your mind. Two lifelong DAK scholars disagree with you. Knowing the wisdom of these men as I do, I stand by my last statement. Nor do I wish to agrue this ad naseum with you, it is not my area and I only commented because one of them asked me to. I am out.
Cheers,
John

[90th Light]

Also with respect, only in your mind. Two lifelong DAK scholars disagree with you. Knowing the wisdom of these men as I do, I stand by my last statement. Nor do I wish to agrue this ad naseum with you, it is not my area and I only commented because one of them asked me to. I am out.
Cheers,
John

I can respect that John, I did not think we were having an argument but rather a debate in the hope of discovering something new. If I have caused you or the lifelong DAK scholars offence in any way then I most certainly apologise.

Best regards, Chris

[Bob Hritz]

I will also quit questioning authority. The tunic in the center is most certainly a model 41 custom tailored tunic with low quality tailoring seams across the upper neck to arms, and a tailor who forgot the pointed pockets and pleats. ( Or a tailor who, like the Amazing Kreskin, was able to forsee a future pattern) My eyes are just too common to see the pleats and pointed flaps. The emperor had the same tailor.

Bob hritz

[John Hodgin]

I
If I have caused you or the lifelong DAK scholars offence in any way then I most certainly apologise.

Best regards, Chris

No offense Chris, and were this a Luftwaffe tunic, we could continue the discussion.

Despite Bob's degrading and hostile tone; has anyone ever noticed the numerous mid 42 photos of DAK officers wearing custom tailored tunics without pointed pockets? As for the missing pleats, having seen Luft. M41 caps with THREE vent grommets per side, and then other 41 caps from the same period with NO vent grommets at all, I believe anything is possible when considering private purchase uniforms.

adieu,
John

[90th Light]

No offense Chris, and were this a Luftwaffe tunic, we could continue the discussion.

Despite Bob's degrading and hostile tone; has anyone ever noticed the numerous mid 42 photos of DAK officers wearing custom tailored tunics without pointed pockets? As for the missing pleats, having seen Luft. M41 caps with THREE vent grommets per side, and then other 41 caps from the same period with NO vent grommets at all, I believe anything is possible when considering private purchase uniforms.

adieu,
John

Hello John, again I respect what you are saying. Having talked to some lifelong DAK collectors myself, I have often benefitted from their experence. What I am trying to say here is that they have good reasons and many years of observations for what they conclude. Many times they have put me on the right track and corrected me when I have been heading in the wrong direction. On the other hand we have here what I call a blatant photo and I feel this justifies a debate which makes us all consider and reconsider what is known and what is not.

Any-way I think we have reached the point where this has gone as far as it can go on this thread and there is another about this tunic continuing. What is important for me to repeat here John, is that I in no way want to fall out with you over this and I do value your help & input on these threads very much.

Also I must add that I appreciate Bob's contribution here as well. I do not feel quite so alone in my thoughts about this tunic/ cap and he is a well respected collector of many years experience who has added to this thread and helped us all look at both sides of the coin on this matter.

Regards, Chris

[Bob Hritz]

John,

My post was not intended to be hostile or degrading, and certainly directed at you. I was posting with tongue in cheek. I have learned too much from your posts to throw an insult in your direction.

I just find it hard to accept someone's word as 'gospel', when looking at an old photo of a tunic. We know that lighting, shadows, and wear angles do distort images, in period photos. I think that many would disagree that there are seams, on this tunic shoulders and well as the impression that a tunic, be it custom or issued, would have such drastic changes, from the M-41, and be worn simultaneously with the M-41 in Tunesia, if that pattern was not yet invented.

I suppose I get frustrated at absolutes, when viewing photos, and do not intend any disrespect. I just think a great deal of analysis, of this photo, is necessary before making an 'absolute' judgement.

Again, John, if you felt my post was an attack on you, I apologize pubically and with all my heart.

Bob Hritz

[John Hodgin]

Greetings Bob,

Thank you for the very kind post, and I humbly apologize for misreading yours!

I too do not accept absolutes, and I also do not take what may seem to be the obvious at face value. I am an original doubting Thomas. I've seen tan-water jumpsmocks which were produced sometime in 1944 with 1940 dates on them. I have had collectors argue that these smocks were radical prototypes and that the 40 date was correct. Like smocks, photos can be misidentified and misdated.

So, when a gentleman who has interviewed countless DAK veterans, and has had many of them as personal lifelong friends. Who has an incredible DAK collection, and has poured over and intensely studied thousands of DAK photos. Who over the years has taught me so much. When this man expresses doubt over this photo, I listen, process, question, and learn. That is where I was coming from.

I wish you very Happy Holidays,
John