DAK overseas cap w/soutache

[jlt1987]

Looked at a unissued DAK overseas cap. It is dated 11-42 and has a purple soutache. Should it have a soutache at this date. If correct what would be the value on it.

[B. N. Singer]

... It is dated 11-42 and has a purple soutache. Should it have a soutache at this date. ..

Probably not.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Hello, even if this cap is correct you should not pay any more than a DAK cap with no soutache dated 11/42 because your cap is not one world or the other. By this I mean, collectors who want a soutache will not accept this and those who do not want a soutache will view the cap as ruined. Following this logic one could argue that such a cap has been devalued and is worth less than an un-touched cap.
I know that the Germans did some-times add soutaches to their caps after the order to remove was made but you try and prove that such an addition is period but a purple soutache is a very rare colour and a nice thing to add post-war to try and increase the value of a basic cap.

Provided the cap and soutache are of pre-May 45 manufacture then the cap is worth having at the right price but I mean the right price

Hope this helps, Chris

[Bob Hritz]

Was the purple for chaplain staff? I believe I have seen a purple waffenfarbed tropical overseas cap, many years ago. Of course, smoke (weinrot piping) would not be correct, on this cap.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

I have an original Erfurt 42 dated tropical overseas cap with pink piping, although my other piped tropical overseas caps are dated 41.

Bob Hritz

[90th Light]

Hello again, A purple soutache on a Tropical side cap is quite acceptable being both rare and desirable. This would represent a chaplin or member of the clergy which is small in number in any German unit. Having said this, I have never seen a tropical sidecap or M40/41 with this soutache colour. May-be that might explain the reason for a hand stitched soutache ? Was a factory version ever made ?

On the other hand however, an important point to check here which Bob is making is that the soutache is not being confused with another colour. Bob mentions Smoke troops but I am thinking medical. Sometimes the dark-purplish blue of this branch can be deceiving.

The main point to stress also is that we have a cap dated November 1942 with a soutache. This is after the order to remove and it seems that most manufacturers had stopped putting soutaches on by that date. A cap dated August 1942 is alot more acceptable but November starts to push it. Having said this if you were a German soldier hell-bent on having a soutache and un-likely to have some NCO / officer breathing down your neck about it then may-be you would hand stitch one on but how can a collector prove that in 2006 ( Another point I must make here is that if I got such sidecap with this configuration and the soutache material was pre-May45, I would not remove that soutache but leave it in place for all to question. Who knows it might be right. )

Comes down to what one will accept in their collection and one will not. I find variations interesting but there are many on this forum who would not entertain such a cap.

Chris

[NZMark]

And throw into the mix the photographic evidence of freshly issued officers caps with soutache on m40 billed caps (and THIRD pattern tunics) in Tunisia in Nov' 1942, then the pot really gets boiled. Interesting stuff!
Mark.

[90th Light]

And throw into the mix the photographic evidence of freshly issued officers caps with soutache on m40 billed caps (and THIRD pattern tunics) in Tunisia in Nov' 1942, then the pot really gets boiled. Interesting stuff!
Mark.

Mark, I know the picture you mean. It is found on page 6 of "Tiger 1 on the Western Front" by Jean Restayn, Histoire & Collections, 2001.

If you also look on page 25 of this book you can clearly see a crewman of the Tiger wearing a soutache on his M41.

This unit is "schwer Panzer Abteilung 501" created May 1942, sent to North Africa November 1942, destroyed March 1943 with the remainder fighting on with 504 after March.

I have been told more than once that Panzerwaffe some-times added the soutache to their caps after the order in 1942 ?

That picture of the DAK officer in a 3rd model tropical tunic with a soutached M41 cap and the DAK officers belt is certainly one for the record, Chris

[NZMark]

Indeed!
I showed this one to a mutual friend, and he was stunned, to say the least, as he stated the earliest 3rd pattern he'd seen in Tunisia was Feb'43. Add to this the fact that the officer has already replaced the insignia on this crisp (to say the least!) tunic, and the two officers beside him are wearing soutached m40's (with officer piping...) Blows some theories out of the water completely.
Mark.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Greetings

This cap could be good. Hans Brandt have three stamps, size and makers mark both at factory and date 1142 which could be time received at depot.
However as I mentioned in earlier threads on sidecaps, its easy today to add soutache.
most likely added postwar or even recently. Also purple is really rare.

90th Light makes really good point about value of this type of cap.

Would like to see pics your talking about ? There are other pics of 501st Panzermen with soutache on both side caps and visored ones. Also pics of 10th Pz Div with soutache as well...all first patern tunics from what I can tell but they must have had second and third version as well.

Tim

[NZMark]

Here you go Tim.
I hope I'm not breaking too many laws with this? If so 'll delete ASAP!
Mark.

[NZMark]

[Mark Gibson]

Interesting photo Mark.
I'd always thought that it was highly unlikely 3rd pattern tunics would have been worn in North Africa as I'd only ever seen pics of mainly 1st patterns and limited pics of 2nd pattern. You learn something new every day.
As for soutached side caps, I really don't have a problem with the 1142 dated examples having soutache. I wouldn't want one in my collection because they haven't actually been used, but having seen some of them I don't have any concerns.

Mark

[Tim O'Keefe]

Mark & Chris

Thanks,
Really great photo,,,this proves (and disproves) many assumptions.
Continental tabs and boards and totenkopfs on first paterns all recently issued soutached visor caps and third patern with same mods except no skulls,- is that tropical bird on third patern I cant tell ? Like the Tigers and street scene too.

Also off the track , what % of Panzertroops wear the skull collar tab in DAK or Africa as a whole ? From photos it seems like around half of them?

Chris sent you a pm...any thoughts ?
Many thanks agian
Tim

[John Hodgin]

Probably not.

B. N. Singer

By saying "probably not," one should understand Mr. Singer's masterful use of understatement, and we should really read this as "definately not."

IHMO this cap will ever be suspect by any advanced DAK collector regardless of what scenarios we might postulate.

And by the way, those M40 caps in the photo are (IMHO) not officer's caps but earlier produced OR caps, (thus early production with soutache) that were modified to officer's caps with the addition of piping. The wavy edge of the piping tells me it is not factory applied.

Regards,
John