DAK overseas cap w/soutache

[B. N. Singer]

By saying "probably not," one should understand...and we should really read this as "definately not."

IHMO this cap will ever be suspect by any advanced DAK collector regardless of what scenarios we might postulate.

Regards,
John

Mr. Hodgin, Yes, you are correct. That is exactly what I mean; of course, I am referring to only what was produced at the factory.

As for what was done in the field at the personal discretion's of the wearer, well, anything could be possible and this involves a skill of determination that many collectors (even long studied ones) will never posses.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Mr. Hodgin, Yes, you are correct. That is exactly what I mean; of course, I am referring to only what was produced at the factory.

As for what was done in the field at the personal discretion's of the wearer, well, anything could be possible and this involves a skill of determination that many collectors (even long studied ones) will never posses.

B. N. Singer

I agree with you on this Mr Singer, there were field alterations made in the period up to May 1945 ( and sadly many more made since May 45) There is a two edge challenge for all collectors presented by this cap;

1/ try and prove that such an alteration is period ? Even if done correctly, prove it. Now this is a tough challenge for all collectors. Beginners and advanced alike.

2/ to ignore such period alterations is to deny history and to not take note of history is both dangerous and wrong.

So what does one do in such a situation That comes down to each collector and what they will and will not accept, how they came across the item, the amount of money involved and how fast they expect the item to resell.

In this case, lets look at the facts; Unissued DAK cap (which there are quite a few originals on the market at present). Possible purple soutache (which if correct is very rare). Is the soutache correctly machine stitched on to the cap or hand stitched ?

If it was correctly machine stitched with no signs of alteration then I would get it because I have never seen this before and that is one rare cap. If on the other hand if it is hand stitched (which you will note I am assuming in this case) and the cap is not a fake then I would buy it if the price was no more than two thirds of what the Collectors Guild is asking at present for a DAK cap with no soutache (hopefully you get it for even less than this, less risk). You then need to start searching for a photo of a WH padre in tropical uniform wearing a sidecap. Not impossible but to date I have not seen one,

Some collectors however would not want such a cap in their collection. That is their choice of course which will depend on how many they already have, how badly they want one and how much money they are willing to spend. At the end of the day it is an individual thing.

Chris

[John Hodgin]

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That picture of the DAK officer in a 3rd model tropical tunic with a soutached M41 cap and the DAK officers belt is certainly one for the record, Chris

By the way Chris and Mark, several advanced DAK collectors have expressed the opinion that the tunic worn by the officer in the center of the photo is NOT a third pattern tropical tunic, but a private purchase tunic with pleatless pockets. They say that careful study of the tunic's details bear this out.

John

[NZMark]

Well, Stranger things have happened. But I find it exceptionally hard to believe that an officer would commission a tunic to be made in the newly introduced pattern when (if he was going to all that trouble to customize himself a whole new tunic) he could have had one made as a fashionable 1st pattern.
Mark.

[90th Light]

By the way Chris and Mark, several advanced DAK collectors have expressed the opinion that the tunic worn by the officer in the center of the photo is NOT a third pattern tropical tunic, but a private purchase tunic with pleatless pockets. They say that careful study of the tunic's details bear this out.

John

John, that makes no sense. When you go to a tailor, you go to get something which is a cut above the rest. Why would you say I am an officer please make me the current economy version of this tunic. Unless of course he wants to blend in with the ranks but what if they are not wearing such a tunic in high numbers ? and why add officer insignia if you want to avoid a sniper with a keen eye ?

In fact in my experience it is the other way around, the economy version of the tunic comes into use and everyone says "yuk" so an officer who can afford it has a tunic made in cut of the first model rather than wear the basic model.

Also how can the advanced collectors decide such a thing as this from a black and white photo ?
I have just commissioned a research project for my advanced computing students to develope a programme to tell what colour a cap soutache is from a black and white photo. Believe me this has some challenges in that we may be getting a result but can we prove it is correct.

One thing this does show however (and it does not matter if the tunic is tailor made or an issued one) is that the regulation for the third model tunic were in place and the tunic was being worn by the time this Tiger unit was leaving for Africa at the end of 1942 / start of 1943.

Very interesting, Chris

[Bob Hritz]

Interesting how a tailor would know that the pleated pockets were going to be eliminated, and better yet, that the pocket flaps were going to be rectangles, instead of pointed.

If anyone knows the tailor, can you get him to pick some lettery numbers for me.

Bob Hritz

[NZMark]

I have to agree with Chris.
I also think this thread is deviating (somewhat!) away from the initial question, so perhaps a thread in the uniform section would be more appropriate?
Looking at T/O Roths tunic, is the eagle an EM's or up-grade? Hard to tell from the photo, but if it is an EM's, then the 'tailor' made theory is under even more strain.
Mark.

[B. N. Singer]

John, that makes no sense....Also how can the advanced collectors decide such a thing as this from a black and white photo ?
Very interesting, Chris

Well, certainly Not to be considered an advanced collector but that "vertical seam", running from the shoulder to under the arm certainly seems atypical for the standard factory production M43 jacket.

B. N. Singer

[Bob Hritz]

Bryon,

As much as my limited abilities allow me to manilupate photos, I believe that is not a seam, but a wrinkle. If you look at the officer to the left, he has a visible wrinkle, in the same place. The officer, to the right, has only a partial wrinkle, because of the position of his arm. All seem to start behind the collar, by the top of the collar tab.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I think it is a wrinkle.

Bob hritz

[90th Light]

Well, certainly Not to be considered an advanced collector but that "vertical seam", running from the shoulder to under the arm certainly seems atypical for the standard factory production M43 jacket.

B. N. Singer

Hello Mr Singer, that "vertical seem" is un-like any item of male apparel I have ever seen in military clothing or civilian dress. I mean, would you buy a tailored jacket with a seam positioned there ? Tailors are renowned for their ablilty to hide seams not create them. The interpretation of black and white photos does have its limitations. I have to agree with Bob and it is either a bend or a mark on the photo itself,

Another interesting point in all of this is that we are all having an great discussion here about an alleged DAK sidecap with a purple soutache which no one except the original author of this thread has seen. I wonder if he might be kind enough to post an image or two for us all see this "phantom cap" ,

Chris

[Mark Gibson]

Hi gents,
Valid points from all about the seam/wrinkle and very interesting discussion on the tunic. It is hard to tell with the photo but, to tell you the truth, it appears to me more like a seam in a very odd place. It just appears too straight and uniform to be a wrinkle.
3rd patterns are something which I usually tend to ignore but this one has brought up some points which would be interesting to discuss. However, back to the topic of this thread (as mentioned by Chris) I woulnd't mind seeing a few pics of the side cap in question so that we can all at least make a decent judgement on it instead of only theorising.

Enjoying my day

Mark

[NZMark]

Hi Team,
I've opened a thread on the tunic in the relative section so we can discuss the cap in peace.
Mark.

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hello Gentlemen,

Just did a google search for " purple soutache, sidecap "
and got warelics with nice shade of purple soutache, mint sidecap.
RBnb , 1943 date stamp. Just thought I would mention it.

Not saying this is the 'fore mentioned cap. Would like pics of that cap...
dated "1142 " could be Hans Brandt maker with that stamp.

I will join you on the uniforms section about that great photo of third patern tropical tunic...
Thanks Mark

Regards
Tim

[90th Light]

Thanks Tim, good work. I have to add that a DAK sidecap with an RB number and a soutache does not sound right at all. I have never seen an RB number cap in any form with a soutache which I have trusted.

I will move my discussion of the tunic to the new thread but one final point, after Mark Gibson's observations I went and magnified the photo in my Tiger book. Very hard to say for sure. I agree it is in the right place to be an un-explained seam but it could also be a scratch on the negative. If it is a seem then what purpose would it serve in the construction of the jacket ? All I can think of is to join two off-cuts. Very strange but it has got us all thinking in more ways than one,

Chris

[Adrian Stevenson]

That kind of seam is used to tailor the jacket to the chest to ensure a better fit. Often see on WW2 British battledress that has been altered to ensure a better fit. So it was a technique that was known in the period. I cannot say I have seen it on a German uniform before though. Not sure why a tailor made garment, if that is what it is, would need it?

Interesting thread.

Cheers, Ade.