Panzer black overseas cap help

[djpool]

last pic

[90th Light]

Hello to all, I have never stated that I think this cap is original. What I have said is that from these photos how can I tell and have put forward several areas that I would investigate more closely before I came to a conclusion. These are;

1/ Has it had a soutache
2/ Type of grommet and composite material
3/ Shape compared to others
4/ Size of cap

To this list I would also add type of wool, lining material and the colour of the thread used in construction. You could also look at how the cap has been sewn together. I have also stated that I have a tolerance for and interest in variations.

Some how this breaches a narrow acceptance by Mr Singer and other members of this forum about what is a real cap and what is not. They will not tell me however what this narrow range of acceptance is or if there is any allowable standard deviation from the norm.

Because I have said I would look at these points before I pass judgement and really need a hands-on inspection, I am told I can not pick good from bad and probably have many questionable items.

I am at a loss with this. Some variation items I have came from veterans who welcomed me into their homes, shared stories, memories, photos and in some cases even tears. Looks like when they were at the Second World War they were tricked by the Germans who surrendered and passed them off a fake because what they brought back is not 100% text book to the consensus of the forum.

Then I apologise to all forum members for being so naughty and taking the strictly forbidden wide approach.

I will repeat so there is no doubt. I am not saying this cap is real. I am asking, have we analysed it properly and can we even tell from these images ?, Chris

[90th Light]

Hello Jim, I made my last posting before I read what you have just put up. You have gone to some trouble here and I thank you. Your balanced, researched approach is not lost on me and you make some very good points.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy the forum and the exchange of knowledge which takes place here is both important and helpful. As you say we may not all agree with those who post but at least they are prepared to post.

One more observation I would like to share; In 1940 the Germans did not have a black Panzer M34 side-cap. The cap was introduced in 1940 and there was a real scramble to find suitable items. This is why you will find a wider range of variation in construction and materials with a Panzer side-cap than other German side-caps from this time, hence my comments about more variation in Grommets. This means also that many piece-meal and tailor caps were produced while the Wehrmacht awaited the arrival of factory items. It would seem reasonable that these variations occur more in the early soutache caps than the later non-soutache ones. Remember many Panzerwaffe started wearing the Field-grey M34 and this was quickly forbidden. Some Panzer troops even started wearing a privately purchased black side-cap before 1940. How early I do not know. This was rare and real risk against the uniform regulations.

On this point I made an interesting discovery. Our local University had what use to be a Home Science School. One of their areas of specialist research is textiles. Amongst their various studies I found a German prescription for the cold-dying of items black. Now cold dying and black dying are hard sciences. The Professor in this area told me that this German product had been ground breaking and was developed during the Second World War. Keep in mind that what lead to the colourful Fab-60's was the break-throughs which the Germans made with dye technology in the 1930's esp. things like Waffen SS Camo. They were miles ahead with this type of thing. Another challenge they achieved at this time was dye-fasteners. I have often wondered if some Panzer caps in 1940 were simply black dyed examples of the field grey M34 version and of course a cold dye would minimise shrinking & distortion.

I hope this gets us all thinking but it could explain why not all Panzer M40 sidecaps are factory text-book,

Chris

[djpool]

Hello Jim, I made my last posting before I read what you have just put up. You have gone to some trouble here and I thank you. Your balanced, researched approach is not lost on me and you make some very good points.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy the forum and the exchange of knowledge which takes place here is both important and helpful. As you say we may not all agree with those who post but at least they are prepared to post.

One more observation I would like to share; In 1940 the Germans did not have a black Panzer M34 side-cap. The cap was introduced in 1940 and there was a real scramble to find suitable items. This is why you will find a wider range of variation in construction and materials with a Panzer side-cap than other German side-caps from this time, hence my comments about more variation in Grommets. This means also that many piece-meal and tailor caps were produced while the Wehrmacht awaited the arrival of factory items. It would seem reasonable that these variations occur more in the early soutache caps than the later non-soutache ones. Remember many Panzerwaffe started wearing the Field-grey M34 and this was quickly forbidden. Some Panzer troops even started wearing a privately purchased black side-cap before 1940. How early I do not know. This was rare and real risk against the uniform regulations.

On this point I made an interesting discovery. Our local University had what use to be a Home Science School. One of their areas of specialist research is textiles. Amongst their various studies I found a German prescription for the cold-dying of items black. Now cold dying and black dying are hard sciences. The Professor in this area told me that this German product had been ground breaking and was developed during the Second World War. Keep in mind that what lead to the colourful Fab-60's was the break-throughs which the Germans made with dye technology in the 1930's esp. things like Waffen SS Camo. They were miles ahead with this type of thing. Another challenge they achieved at this time was dye-fasteners. I have often wondered if some Panzer caps in 1940 were simply black dyed examples of the field grey M34 version and of course a cold dye would minimise shrinking & distortion.

I hope this gets us all thinking but it could explain why not all Panzer M40 sidecaps are factory text-book,

Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't really agree with your logic.You make it sound as if there was a sense of urgency to get the Black M34 field cap fielded.

Lets look at some facts which you stated above:
a.The Beret was the regulation headgear to be worn with the Black "Field" uniform. Of course the the beret proved to be unpopular. During the Polish Campaign of 39 troops started wearing the Field Grey cap against regulations. Great thing about field soldiers and commanders is they tend to ignore the HQ wienies when orders make no sense.
b. In March 40 the authorization was given to manufacture the Black M34 Cap.

Now I'm sure there is a document somewhere that details the transistion period that states that all soldiers will be issued the cap by a certain date. Now these dates aren't pulled out of thin air.The logisticians consider a lot of things like production capacity, availability of materials, unit priorities,competing clothing items, etc. before setting a date. Now considering that German industry in March 40 was intact(still producing luxury items)raw materials were available and manufacturers could meet military demands there was no need to rush anything. Soldiers of all nations will generally not spend their own dime to buy anything that is supposed to be issued to them. Do I spend my money on something I'm supposed to be issued or use it to for a night on the repperbahn?

Also consider that the German military and industry was geared to fight and win wars of short duration. It wasn't until the they got bogged down in Russia did the shortcomings of the German textile industry become apparent. At that point they had to improvise which usually took the form of trying to maximize the raw materials needed to make uniform items. The actual quality of uniform construction stayed fairly consistent till the end IMHO.

Sometimes I think I should sign up for a degree in fashion. It sure would be a great help in the hobby.

WR Jim

[90th Light]

Hello Jim, I appreciate you taking the time to consider my thoughts about the production of Panzer side-caps in 1940. The theory is only a hypothesis at this stage and I accept the point you make about German industry / Logistics not being under pressure at that time. I had not considered that.

I must point out however that Germany did not become a full war-time economy until 1944. If they had standardised production and mobilised all industry sooner they may have done better. One of the great achievements of the USSR and Britain was to mobilise every-thing and put it towards the war effort. Germany as we know returned to alot of civilian production in 1940.

One must also consider the power and influence of privately owned firms in a Fascist state like Nazi Germany. There is always a strong connection between the Fascist and the Free Market firm. This meant that the German government of 1933 to 1945 was always trying to give orders to private industry and were prepared to accomodate different and competing designs for the same thing at the same time. Hitler had also achieved great success during the 1930's by providing orders for small firms and understood well that this increased his popularity / power. The point I am trying to make here, is that Germany had a far higher number of very small producers involved in making material for its war-machine in 1940 than it should have had. They were relying on many producers who were not factories. The economy of scale which the black Panzer side-cap presented may have been ideal for this type of producer. There were no were near the numbers required that there were in Field-grey.

I take on board also the point you make about soldiers not wanting to buy their own gear esp. combat gear. Equally however many soldiers are also vain and have big egos. These soldiers seek out tailors and style in their uniforms because they know it coveys a better image / power with both the troops and the ladies. Keep in mind the Panzerwaffe were not even suppose to be wearing their black uniform on leave or as walking-out dress but they did. If you had a date with your favourite girl who would want to wear one of those Panzer Berets when you can get your hands on a side-cap. Another point is that it was an age when people used tailors alot more than they do today. A man was judged by to cut of his coat and people looked for that hence the saying "a cut above the rest".

I know my theory is not bullet proof and I am not trying to say it is. What I am trying to show to those who read this thread is that I try to look at all possibilities before I pass a judgement and I hope they do the same.

Best regards Jim and again I appreciate being able to share some of these ideas with you esp. as I know you have a strong interest in the German textiles and Logistics of World War 2. I think you should consider a Masters degree at the very least, Chris