Besides the grommets, the shape and sewing (from what I can see) are also areas of concern.WR Jim
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Hello jacquesf, can you tell me if this cap has ever had a soutache on it ?
ChrisComment
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Can you show a closeup of those grommets, Jacques?
I don't like the cut of the skirt of the cap myself.
-LeeComment
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Chris, it never had a soutache and luckily I don't own this cap (it was offered to me) so I have no more picture. It is however quite clear from the comments that it is no good. Thanx for all the comments.
Originally posted by 90th LightComment
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Every-one says this cap is wrong but how can they tell from these pictures ?
If you have had the chance to handle any veteran brought back caps you might be able to see that there are several features about this cap which need to be looked at carefully.
I would not be so fast to pass judgement and may-be I should put up pictures of some other caps to illustrate what I mean
The more you collect the less you will find you know, ChrisComment
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Actually, I think the reverse is correct. But I could agree with a statement like 'the longer you collect, the more questionable items you're likely to see'....Originally posted by 90th LightComment
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[QUOTE=Mike D.]Actually, I think the reverse is correct.
I agree with Mike D.; that is assuming your any good with this stuff
B. N. SingerComment
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Mr Singer you are as good as the images you look at. It has never failed to amaze me sometimes how different something can be when you get a hands on inspection verses the photos you were shown.
On this cap for example the low cockade could be a sign of a soutache removed. If a soutache was removed in the field after use then there will be clear signs of the cap having had a soutache BUT if it was removed by order of the stores officer in 1942 before the cap was issued then the job will be very neat and in many cases leave very few signs of a soutache except for may be a few threads. A low cockade can be a sign of this.
Then there is the question of the grommets. No one has ever seen ones like those on original WW2 German caps
Not comman I agree but still possible
Then there is the question of the shape and cut of the cap Line up all your side caps by different makers. How many have slight difference in cloth, shape, cut and style ?
I repeat the more you study this to any depth the less certain you will be that you can recognise every original war-time variation.
From these photos I could not say either way about this cap and quite frankly I am surprised so many others canLast edited by 90th Light; 06-08-2006, 06:55 PM.Comment
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Photographs
Hi,
I agree with the preceeding reply. Photographs are important but cannot take the place of a hands on inspection. Sometimes an item may be so flawed that its obviously a fake but I am finding these days fakes are much better than in the 80's. A few times it has taken me months to finally ascertain a Cap is a fake. I rely on reference books, and the knowledge one gains from handling items. There are always small tell tale signs , wear in the wrong place, a missing sweatshield when the Cap is in good condition, insignia applied wrongly, incorrect stitching. I dont know how much value to attach to the Blacklight or thread burn test. How accurate are these? Can anyone give me some advice on this thread burning test?. How should a piece of thread from this era burn, did they use any synthetic threads at all?. I have a Luftwaffe M43 Field service cap I have doubts on, it could have been a hurried construction and this may explain some of my concerns. I have another Cap which others have doubts about from photographs supplied but I have gone over it inch by inch and am almost certain is okay.When first informed it looked wrong I was tempted to dispose of it. I know at times photographs are all we have to work with. If one gives an opinion from a photograph it should be backed up with an explanation of sorts or at least a PM to the owner. This is a 'better' photograph ofthe front of the Cap viewed as suspect.
cheers RobertComment
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Chris,
Always defending the "iffy" stuff. Good for you.
Originally posted by 90th LightMr Singer you are as good as the images you look at. It has never failed to amaze me sometimes how different something can be when you get a hands on inspection verses the photos you were shown.
On this cap for example the low cockade could be a sign of a soutache removed. If a soutache was removed in the field after use then there will be clear signs of the cap having had a soutache BUT if it was removed by order of the stores officer in 1942 before the cap was issued then the job will be very neat and in many cases leave very few signs of a soutache except for may be a few threads. A low cockade can be a sign of this.
Then there is the question of the grommets. No one has ever seen ones like those on original WW2 German caps Not comman I agree but still possible
Then there is the question of the shape and cut of the cap Line up all your side caps by different makers. How many have slight difference in cloth, shape, cut and style ?
I repeat the more you study this to any depth the less certain you will be that you can recognise every original war-time variation.
From these photos I could not say either way about this cap and quite frankly I am surprised so many others canComment
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Hello jacquest, some-one has to put forward an alternative view point because this forum on caps seems to have stopped thinking. With-out better pictures or a hands-on who can tell if this cap is right or wrong but for Gods sake lets do a proper analysis of the details before we come to a final conclusion.
Yes many people here can smell a fake at 50 paces but how many times do they not pick the real deal. Based on the PM's I am getting it is also interesting what those who will not talk on the forum have to say and what they know.
Like what I am saying or do not like what I am saying but tell me how I am wrong on this ?
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 06-08-2006, 11:44 PM.Comment
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Hello Robert, thank you for your reply. I will not comment on your M43 except to say I like them but they are are another mine-field. Why don't you start a thread with the one you have pictured,
ChrisComment
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Chris, I have learned, the hard way on this hobby, to err on the cautious side when buying TR memoribilia. To buy something of a picture is highly risky and to get your money back after a "handson" mostly extremely difficult, especially with some dealers. So to me an item is guilty untill proven innocent.
For these reason I value the input of people like Bryon Singer which set very high standards and know what they talk about. I have found that when people start defending questionable items there normally is an agenda (not necessarilly refering to yourself). Therefor I will stick to items that can stand 100% on it own. JacquesComment
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Buy and enjoy all the questionable items you like ...But when its time to move them on for CASH dont be shocked by the back of fellow collectors heels or the ridiculous insulting prices you ll be offered for something less than standard..Unfortunately SOME quite original items are CANCERED as BAD when they dont follow the established patterns collectors view as legit..I for one have never much cared for a certain variation of the bevo m43 eagle with a x cross style breast thread ..although they seem to out there on officer and em caps and are viewed as the real deal..Billbert
looks like the panzer cap in question here may have had a soutache at one point??Comment
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jacquest and Billbert, I agree totally with what you are both saying. I have always said there are 4 classes of Third Reich Militaria;
1/ Recognised text-book which sets and commands the premium price
2/ Original non-text book which will never command the price of text-book
3/ Amazing fake which can fool many but you really do not want it in your collection but every collector can tell a story about this class
4/ Fakes which are so bad they should fool no-one except the blind and the simple. Really of no value. l
The decision between classes 2 and 3 can be a hard one and is what I have pushed with my contribution to this thread.
Personally I find variations fascinating and love researching them. What I am careful about is how much I pay. Some-times if the price is right it is worth taking the punt. To my delight in many cases further down the track when things appear with dealers like "The Collectors Guild" or "The Ruptured Duck" which I view as bench mark sites
I am at the disadvantage in this debate of not knowing who the seller of this cap is but perhaps that is a good thing because I am trying to judge the item not the dealer or the story. My focus is thus on the features of the cap.
You make reference to Mr Singer, I do not doubt that he has seen, owned and handled a huge amount of Panzer items and if I could get any information or help I would value it. That however at this stage is a closed door which I do not know how to open.
Should I question or debate what the respected experts on this forum say IMO this is what a forum is all about. Can I learn from them ?, yes and that is what I appreciate. Can they learn from me ? it has been my experience that there is some-thing in most collections that you have never seen before or really enjoy getting the opportunity to see.
Now back to the cap which started this thread, is it class 2 or class 3 in my catergories above ?
I certainly agree it is not class 1 and thus one would need to be cautious but I do not think it deserves to be treated as class 4,
ChrisLast edited by 90th Light; 06-09-2006, 02:45 AM.Comment
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