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**richthofen_117** · 03-13-2020, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by GAMS1 View Post

IMO a good cap which was never dyed of course … how come you could still have a grey sillk lining ( not black ) and grey threads on a black dyed cap ?
Typical post 43 late war black wool quality .
The silk is not really typical but why not ?
Regarding the aroles of dirt inside , if you try to wash an old cap you will always have traces of the dirt ?
The size stamping is different than the tropical side cap presented, but ok for me .
Nick

Thank you Nick, much appreciated.

**alone01** · 03-13-2020, 04:06 AM

Thanks for the additional pics. For me it's a late war panzer M43 cap without doubts, I can even smell the gunsmoke on it.

**MM1985** · 03-13-2020, 06:08 AM

I do not like this cap.

The wool is very believable but the construction, the stains, the aging and the Details are off.

No matter if you are looking at the pics pre washing or post washing.

**richthofen_117** · 03-13-2020, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by MM1985 View Post

I do not like this cap.

The wool is very believable but the construction, the stains, the aging and the Details are off.

No matter if you are looking at the pics pre washing or post washing.

I respect your opinion, thanks!

**sfk20** · 03-13-2020, 10:29 AM

At the risk of continuing the debate ad nauseam, I really think these caps are held under a microscope to a ridiculous degree. I agree they are rare, but not as rare as the forum makes them out to be. The M43 is a simple cap and was made by hundreds of manufacturers throughout Germany with slight variations throughout. Yes, there are details that are common to the construction of all of them, but I think people are grasping at straws when they say there are details off about this cap.

More importantly, if you don't know if a detail is correct, that doesn't make it incorrect.

**jacquesf** · 03-13-2020, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by sfk20 View Post

At the risk of continuing the debate ad nauseam, I really think these caps are held under a microscope to a ridiculous degree. I agree they are rare, but not as rare as the forum makes them out to be. The M43 is a simple cap and was made by hundreds of manufacturers throughout Germany with slight variations throughout. Yes, there are details that are common to the construction of all of them, but I think people are grasping at straws when they say there are details off about this cap.

More importantly, if you don't know if a detail is correct, that doesn't make it incorrect.

Guys have comment on here that are imo the most knowledgable on this subject on the WAF. If I wanted opinions on a black m43, it would be theirs. J

**sfk20** · 03-13-2020, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by jacquesf View Post

Guys have comment on here that are imo the most knowledgable on this subject on the WAF. If I wanted opinions on a black m43, it would be theirs. J

Yes I agree, and I think for the most part this thread has been helpful. But in the end, you have a cap that was discussed in 2014 and given a confusing response. So much so that the owner decided to have it dry cleaned, adding unnecessary stress to what seems now to be an original cap (to me anyway).

I just think there's a big difference between saying "this cap is wrong" and "this cap doesn't look like any others I've seen".

**richthofen_117** · 03-13-2020, 12:00 PM

Well, Gents, I appreciate all your opinions. Now I feel the cap is more likely to be original than fake by reading everyone's comment plus my hand checking, at least I got the answer that the cap is not a field grey which dyed black. Sfk20, I think the words you said is right: "Anyway I don't think I've seen a single Panzer M-43 that everyone has agreed about on the WAF. I'm sure it's happened, but rarely. Personally I feel like a lot of authentic ones have been cast down because when people aren't absolutely certain they cry fake. Authenticating these is a minefield." Robert also hit the nail: "Opinions on these type caps are all over the place. As long as you are satisfied with it, that is all that matters."

Many thanks again Gents!

Best regards,
Yun

**alone01** · 03-13-2020, 01:35 PM

Originally posted by sfk20 View Post

Yes I agree, and I think for the most part this thread has been helpful. But in the end, you have a cap that was discussed in 2014 and given a confusing response. So much so that the owner decided to have it dry cleaned, adding unnecessary stress to what seems now to be an original cap (to me anyway).

I just think there's a big difference between saying "this cap is wrong" and "this cap doesn't look like any others I've seen".

I agree. Specious comments are everywhere in today's collection forums, they're of no use for collector to learn knowledge. Even more, some were forced to do stupid things on their original items like Yun did. So, the correct thing we should do is to give the reason why it's good or not good, rather than "I like it" or "I don't like it".

**Lenny W** · 03-13-2020, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by alone01 View Post

I agree. Specious comments are everywhere in today's collection forums, they're of no use for collector to learn knowledge. Even more, some were forced to do stupid things on their original items like Yun did. So, the correct thing we should do is to give the reason why it's good or not good, rather than "I like it" or "I don't like it".

I don't think anyone twisted his arm to have it dry cleaned. That was his choice and his alone

**90th Light** · 03-13-2020, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by Lenny W View Post

I don't think anyone twisted his arm to have it dry cleaned. That was his choice and his alone

Veterans sometimes dry-cleaned the stuff or washed it. I remember going round to veterans house in the 1980's to buy some stuff off him. His caring wife had carefully washed the German uniform and caps then hung them out on the clothes line in the mid-day sun to dry. She had also polished all the brass British/ NZ badges with Brasso to make them nice clean and bright for me. Thus saving me the job as she said, "nothing was left grubby in their house when it needed a good cleaning"....... bless her

I also remember a collector here in the 1970's who if a uniform or cap was too soiled, he would get it dry-cleaned. To make matters worse, he use to carefully remove the eagle/ swaz so the dry-cleaners would not steal them. This meant un-picking an original machine sewn badge and then hand stitching it back on after he picked the items up from the dry-cleaners. Seemingly got the idea from a dealer he use to buy off back then, who had purchased a quantity of used/ soiled POW uniforms from Europe and imported them into the country.

Basically what I am saying is, Yun has dry-cleaned the cap but it is not ruined. It is now cleaner and fresher than it had to be. But his is not the only item that this has happened too along the way. I agree it takes away some of the patina. But not all patina is honest war time wear. Some is purely the result of bad storage and neglect since May 1945.

The cap is worth having given what a premier black Panzer M43 can sell for these days. Something had already washed/ faded the colour out of that cap long before Yun touched it,

Chris

**BenVK** · 03-13-2020, 04:28 PM

I sometimes wonder if I'm looking at the same photos as some people who comment on this forum.

Take a look at this photo from the 2014 thread.
This tide mark is either the result of a botched dye job or hot wash that stripped the original dye out of the sewing thread which bled into the lining.

Either way, I don't blame Yun for wanting to clean the cap to remove this. I would have done the same. The only difference is that I would never trust anything like this to a laundry to dry clean or whatever they do.

I'm not going to comment on whether I think it's original or not, this one needs to be inspected in hand and even then it might be difficult to be certain, IMO.

Attached Files

IMG_0760.jpg (155.5 KB, 85 views)

**90th Light** · 03-13-2020, 05:03 PM

Thanks Ben,

I like the shape of the "57" in this Panzer M43 and you have found bigger image

I am starting to wonder if the 5 and the 7 are more of a match with the CW stamps than I first thought it to be ?

Chris

Attached Files

**BenVK** · 03-13-2020, 05:16 PM

Thanks Chris because that reminded me of something else I wanted to say.

For some reason, it seems that any cap whether it be a visor or fieldcap that has just a size stamp like this is now associated to Clemens Wagner and then it's judged as original or fake stamp based on that assumption.

To believe that Wagner was only firm in the whole of the Reich to stamp their caps this way is utter nonsense.

**alone01** · 03-13-2020, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Lenny W View Post

I don't think anyone twisted his arm to have it dry cleaned. That was his choice and his alone

Yes no one twisted his arms, but you would understand him when you read his words carefully on #5,#7. He made such choice just because he's been bothered by those specious & confusing comments for 6 years! To some extent I think it could be regarded as a "compulsion".

Lenny, Yun added some new pics what you asked for on #48, may I know your opinion? Thanks.

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