My panzer M43 cap for opinions

[RobertE]

Looks better, for certain. Those pictures show the thread to not contrast as badly. It's not a bad looking cap, though I think the laundry may have washed the thread dye out a bit.

s/f Robert

[richthofen_117]

Looks better, for certain. Those pictures show the thread to not contrast as badly. It's not a bad looking cap, though I think the laundry may have washed the thread dye out a bit.

s/f Robert

Thanks Robert, I feel much relieved by your words.

[90th Light]

It looks to be very faded. IMO the fading is more than just washing, although that has possibly taken a bit of colour out ???

However, it is like it has been sitting in a sunny window or display cabinet for some time. or// Sitting in damp condition for a period of time can wash colour out too and stain the liner like that. May be it was just thrown aside some where for a period of time and forgotten when the Germans surrendered.

If it was a tropical M40, the fading and loss of colour would add value and character.

The rough quality of the machine stitching is typical of some originals and it has the later war trap machine sewn. Plus some of the thread has been grey not black when the cap was made and the grey thread has now washed out to a lighter grey. Use of grey thread or a range of threads to make a cap or jacket etc, is again typical late war.

Would a black Panzer M43 worn in the north of Italy over 1944 to 1945 (and maybe into 1946 as a POW) fade as much as that ?

Chris

[richthofen_117]

It looks to be very faded. IMO the fading is more than just washing, although that has possibly taken a bit of colour out ???

However, it is like it has been sitting in a sunny window or display cabinet for some time. or// Sitting in damp condition for a period of time can wash colour out too and stain the liner like that. May be it was just thrown aside some where for a period of time and forgotten when the Germans surrendered.

If it was a tropical M40, the fading and loss of colour would add value and character.

The rough quality of the machine stitching is typical of some originals and it has the later war trap machine sewn. Plus some of the thread has been grey not black when the cap was made and the grey thread has now washed out to a lighter grey. Use of grey thread or a range of threads to make a cap or jacket etc, is again typical late war.

Would a black Panzer M43 worn in the north of Italy over 1944 to 1945 fade as much as that ?

Chris

Yes Chris, just as you said, the cap looked to be very faded when I initially obtained in 2014. I noticed the black wool on the exterior especially on the top peeled off seriously, even no wool in some place, so the color of the cap looks not uniform rather patchy. I was told by seller that the cap was very well worn and frayed a lot during the war. I have no idea what had happend to this cap, worse still, I have it dry-cleaned this time.

[alone01]

The additional pics are good enough, the cap is original late war product. It's a pity you have it washed.

[richthofen_117]

The additional pics are good enough, the cap is original late war product. It's a pity you have it washed.

Thanks alone for your positive comment.

[90th Light]

Yes Chris, just as you said, the cap looked to be very faded when I initially obtained in 2014. I noticed the black wool on the exterior especially on the top peeled off seriously, even no wool in some place, so the color of the cap looks not uniform rather patchy. I was told by seller that the cap was very well worn and frayed a lot during the war. I have no idea what had happend to this cap, worse still, I have it dry-cleaned this time.

Yes the wool has lost a lot of its pile leaving only the base weave showing. When you look a the staining around the circumference of the liner. For that staining to remain after professional cleaning is interesting. Does it show that cap has had some real wear/ use for a period of time ? or// is it staining caused by disintegration of the internal band from sitting in damp conditions ? or// artificial and deliberately added with some thing like reddish-brown shoe polish ?

Chris

[richthofen_117]

Yes the wool has lost a lot of its pile leaving only the base weave showing. When you look a the staining around the circumference of the liner. For that staining to remain after professional cleaning is interesting. Does it show that cap has had some real wear/ use for a period of time ? or// is it staining caused by disintegration of the internal band from sitting in damp conditions ? or// deliberately added with some thing like shoe polish ?

Chris

They didn't wash all stains off the lining, but I think it would be a good evidence that the cap was well worn in the war. You know, old stain especially old sweat stain is very hard to remove, even by professional washing.

[90th Light]

They didn't wash all stains off the lining, but I think it would be a good evidence that the cap was well worn in the war. You know, old stain especially old sweat stain is very hard to remove, even by professional washing.

True but I am looking at it from all angles.

I think it has every chance of being an original but would need to hold it in hand to say more.

However, when it comes to acceptance of a black Panzer M43 on WAF, it has to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

The font of the size "57" is another road to go down and check. Which manufacturer like CW used size numbers in that font ? Then again you also have to ask which faker does their "57" like that ?

Chris

[alone01]

Yes the wool has lost a lot of its pile leaving only the base weave showing. When you look a the staining around the circumference of the liner. For that staining to remain after professional cleaning is interesting. Does it show that cap has had some real wear/ use for a period of time ? or// is it staining caused by disintegration of the internal band from sitting in damp conditions ? or// artificial and deliberately added with some thing like reddish-brown shoe polish ?

Chris

If the stains on the lining were artificially aged by something like shoe polish, they would be easily removed by modern washing technology. IMO the sweat caused decoloration of black dye on the top and stained the lining, which formed this irregular stain.

[richthofen_117]

...The font of the size "57" is another road to go down and check. Which manufacturer like CW used size numbers in that font ? Then again you also have to ask which faker does their "57" like that ?

Chris

Yes this is what I want to learn.

[BenVK]

Firstly, thanks for the new photos, much much better!

Here's what I think might have happened with this cap.
I suspect that it was once quite dirty and greasy so someone decided to hot wash it. That removed most of the grime but it also removed patches of nap/pile and some of the original manufactures black dye.
It was then re-dyed black in an attempt to make it look better and less patchy. Anyone who has tried to dye clothing at home will recognise the signs such as dye pooling in the seams and tide marks which are clearly shown on this cap's lining. I also recognise the signs of the dye reacting with old sweat and grease stains and turning them strange colours like purple, brown, sometimes even green.

So yeah, it was a mistake to dry clean it but I think it's already been messed with a lot in the past.

[richthofen_117]

Firstly, thanks for the new photos, much much better!

Here's what I think might have happened with this cap.
I suspect that it was once quite dirty and greasy so someone decided to hot wash it. That removed most of the grime but it also removed patches of nap/pile and some of the original manufactures black dye.
It was then re-dyed black in an attempt to make it look better and less patchy. Anyone who has tried to dye clothing at home will recognise the signs such as dye pooling in the seams and tide marks which are clearly shown on this cap's lining. I also recognise the signs of the dye reacting with old sweat and grease stains and turning them strange colours like purple, brown, sometimes even green.

So yeah, it was a mistake to dry clean it but I think it's already been messed with a lot in the past.

Thanks Ben, I think you might be right, but no one knows exactly what had happened to this cap.
Since the staff told me all the re-dyed fabric would return to original color by their cleaning method, now the black color should be the cap's original wartime color, so it stands a good chance to be an original wartime piece. That's a good news for me as I didn't pay too much for it. A pity that the laundry might have washed the thread dye out, which increasing distinguish difficulty.

[90th Light]

Yes this is what I want to learn.

Comparison with the Clemens Wagner size "57" in a Panzer Grenadier tropical sidecap from the Beehive find. These particular tropical side-caps are unique in that they had double grommets on each side and a size only marking. No makers stamp.

The font of the "57" in your Panzer M43 cap looks to be almost the same as that in the tropical sidecap.

The tropical side-cap shows that CW did mark some of their caps with only a size marking.

However, you need to compare with more than one known, original, beyond doubt example. The "5" and "7" vary a little bit in this comparison. CW would have had more than one set of size stamps made at different times and are a possibility for your Panzer M43 cap.

Chris

p.s. search CW (Clemens Wagner) and you find other examples. Some SS officer visors and SS M43 caps made by this company have only a size marking. Also search "57" and you will find both good and bad examples to compare with

[Daniel.S]

Comparison with the Clemens Wagner size "57" in a Panzer Grenadier tropical sidecap from the Beehive find. These particular tropical side-caps are unique in that they had double grommets on each side and a size only marking. No makers stamp.

The font of the "57" in your Panzer M43 cap looks to be almost the same as that in the tropical sidecap.

The tropical side-cap shows that CW did mark some of their caps with only a size marking.

However, you need to compare with more than one known, original, beyond doubt example. The "5" and "7" vary a little bit in this comparison. CW would have had more than one set of size stamps made at different times and are a possibility for your Panzer M43 cap.

Chris

p.s. search CW (Clemens Wagner) and you find other examples. Some SS officer visors and SS M43 caps made by this company have only a size marking. Also search "57" and you will find both good and bad examples to compare with

omg lol

That hat has nothing do do with Clemens.