Originally posted by laurens
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Hi Laurens, what information do you have to the contrary that it was only a celebration badge? -
The best source to understand that this was more than a celebration badge is that: the badge was proudly worn by the recipients for years, even during the war.Originally posted by laurens View Post
Every renowned researchers (Angolia, Lumsdem, Littlejohn...) describe this badge as a regional award from the Gau Munchen-Oberbayern to reward firstly to those who participated in the Putsch of 1923 and later to other reputed persons. The links with the Blutorder are obvious.
As a lot of them are in the market I think these were widely distributed by the Gauleiter or a lot of them were made and stocked until the end of the war.
If you can now give us some information about your thesis and show some documentation to probe that it´s a celebration badge, all of us will be very gratefull for opening our eyes.Comment
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Erich and Gregorio, the above researchers offer no substantiation for their statements. (I must admit I do not have Lumsden's work in my library). Perhaps researcher is too specific a term for the two I have read. Perhaps cataloger would be more accurate. Their opinions in writing carry no more weight than Laurens opinion. Their names might be more famous and you paid for their book. But show me a citation for their conclusion? It is an hypothesis perhaps based on the date on the award. IMO, Laurens theory is just as valid.Originally posted by Gregorio Torres View PostComment
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The official name of the badge gives me a 99% certainty that the badge was given to those who participated in the Putsch. As we have seen it was also given by Wagner for other purposes as well. JMO.Originally posted by ErichS View PostComment
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Erich, I really enjoy this discussion. Perhaps Laurens theory is not too different from yours. He used the word "celebration badge", which is not at all at odds with the various meanings of Erinnnerungsabzeichen.
But I am curious as to the "official" name of the award that provides you with the 99% certainty. Littlejohn titled the award "Gau Munchen Erinnerungsabzeichen Der 9. Nov. 1923". Unfortunately he neglected to offer an substantiation for his statement in his book. I don't have Angolia at hand, but I would not doubt that he borrowed from Littlejohn, as offen happened.
Have you found in your studies a period reference using this title?
While such a citation would provide positive documentation of the purpose of the badge, I think association with Putsch participants is still speculative. Perhaps the badge was an effort by the Gau soon after the Coming to Power to put a different spin on the events at the Feldherrnhalle. Perhaps that tied in with the efforts to include the police dead as martyrs in the event.Comment
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Joe, anything is possible but as far as I know it's the earliest award with the same motto as on the Mahnmal and later used on the BO. No, I have no solid proof of it's purpose but the relationship it has to the Putsch and possibly the later BO, it makes sense to me that an award was possibly given by Wagner to reward those who took part. Like Greg has said, if one can produce evidence that it was given to all as just a CELEBRATION badge my opinion will change.Comment
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Though it has the same motto as the Mahnmahl, many items that had nothing to do with the actual participants but that were meant as a commemorative of the event also did. The motto, created to commemmorate those who died in the event, was widely used in annual celebrations.
The designation Erinnerungsabzeichen simply means commemmorative badge. It may just commemmorate the event without being a distinct award to the participants.
The fact that it is relatively easily available (I think Craig has a stash of them), indicates it was far more widely distributed than the number of BO holders. The quote "Every renowned researchers (Angolia, Lumsdem, Littlejohn...) describe this badge as a regional award from the Gau Munchen-Oberbayern to reward firstly to those who participated in the Putsch of 1923 and later to other reputed persons." actually applies to the BO as well as the 2nd pattern was awarded to individuals that were not participants. Yet, somehow, this little badge is available in numbers far greater than the BO.
Though it has a connection to the event, I have my doubts that anything truly connects this to the individual BO holders. Unfortunately there is no proof, only conjecture, at this point to divulge its true purpose.
Richard VComment
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Richard, the 1st striking of the BO was only given to about 1500 of those proven by at least two wittnesses to have been at the Putsch. We all know from history that there were at lease 2,000 or more supporters there and many were not members of the Party or SA. My thought is that the GMB was possibly given to supporters as well as members which would make the numbers far greater than those of the BO. Again, this is just speculation but it makes sense. I stand by my opinion that the badge was given to citizens as well as Party members who were at the event until proven otherwise.Comment
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So basically we are back to square one with this badge. An interesting piece with an unknown title and purpose. The name assigned by Littlejohn is speculation unless he found a source not listed in his book, as is the purpose of the badge. I would love to see some source material with mention of the badge, but it should have surfaced by now. So until proven otherwise, I am of the opinion that the badge was a commemorative badge created by the locals in Munich to celebrate the event. I would say it might be similar to the Deschler commemorative medal Deschler produced that is shown over in the Putsch/ Feldherrnhalle Grouping thread.
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This is a great badge. I believe it to be somewhat scarce. Sure there are some in members collections here and Craig may have a small "stash of them". This doesn't make it common (Craig has a lot of items that aren't common).
In the same respect there are members here with a Blood Order in their collections hell there is even a member with a BUNCH of them. This doesn't make them common.
I just think that the Gau isn't as popular as the BO. That is why it is more readily available and underrated.
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Erich, I truly would like to believe the same as I have several of these. However I usually try to take the most conservative approach and won't believe something is very special until it is proven to be. There definitely is some connection, but even with your numbers of over 3500 participants/supporters, I think these can be found in numbers far greater than this. There are just too many available out there and you will see several at any given show. I saw three in Germany a few weeks back when I was on vacation without even looking for them and one was (temptingly) priced at 100 Euros.
There are postcards, books, at least 2 HJ tinnies and several other items commemmorating this event. One HJ tinnie with the dates 1923-1933 has been said to be an award for the HJ members that participated. If this is true would the HJ members have received both? Was the HJ pin for the HJ and this pin for the adults? If you add the number of the HJ pins out there to the number of these out there, do the numbers still make sense as awards for particpants/supporters.
I'm not saying this isn't an award for the participants/supporters of the 1923 event. All I am saying there has never been any substantive proof in either direction. Until there is, this will remain a subject of debate.
Richard VComment
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Ok, well here's what I've found. It was called:
"Festabzeichen" für den 9. November in München.
Like the title said just a badge to celebrate it after ten years. In my opinion nothing more.
It seems that none of the modern researchers has any source?Comment
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Well, in your opinion, authors as Angolia, Littlejohn, Lumsdem, even Formann put a tinnie among the awards in their books? Why? They probably can´t participate in this thread to say why, but they must having some reasons to consider this one as an award, as a lot of collectors and reputed dealers do, don´t you think?
I remember a personal conversation with Detlev Niemann about this badge, when he didn´t included in his first catalogue and he tell me that the reason why is cause its a Gau "AWARD" with not national recognition. He didn´t doubt about the status of this badge as an award. And not necesary to say how many items and documents passed through Detlev´s hands. He probably can see some papers, picture or something to mantain this opinion.
As I said before, if it was just a celebrating tinnie, nobody of his recipients (simply "buyers" from your point of view) had been wearing proudly this one during a lot of years as pictures previously shown probes.
Number of pieces now available tell nothing in this or in other cases when talking of TR awards.
And the kind of manufacture or even de design of this badge is not the tipical for a tinnie too.
But if you can show to us some proof about the status of this badge as a tinnie, please do it. I´ll have my eyes and my mind open.
Anycase, if you wish to sell some of them to me for these 100 euros spoken, please send me a pm. I´ll buy all of them available for this price. A very high price for a "common tinnie".Last edited by Gregorio Torres; 07-09-2011, 05:50 AM.Comment
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Greg, you wrote "Well, in your opinion, authors as Angolia, Littlejohn, Lumsdem, even Formann put a tinnie among the awards in their books? Why?" The answer is that later authors often repeat what the first author wrote. That's the fact Jack. It happens often. And without documentation, it is just an opinion.
Laurens, you wrote that the badge was called the " 'Festabzeichen' für den 9. November in München". What is your source for this statement? Fact or opinion?
I would believe either of the positions if someone can show me source documentation from that era. The badge is not in the Organisationsbuch. Is it found in any book of that period listing badges or awards? Until I read information from the period, all opinions are valid. Take your choice.Comment
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"later authors often repeat what the first author wrote".
I think honestly that you are suposing too much. Please let some consideration to the work of these persons.
"Laurens, you wrote that the badge was called the " 'Festabzeichen' für den 9. November in München". What is your source for this statement?"
Yes, please show to us your Third Reich period source.
"The badge is not in the Organisationsbuch"
Obviously. This is not a national award. Even a lot of political national awards aren´t shown in the Organisationbuch.
Just one more question. It´s a pleasure to argue and learn with you.
Very BestComment
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