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**Norm F** · 09-16-2011, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by naxos View Post

Hi Norm,
yes it is a war-time S&L silver grade Fahrerabzeichen. Material is zinc with a silver finish.

The "4" strike on the pin I have only seen on S&L silver grade badges. On bronze grade badges have never encounterd the "4" strike.

I will dig out an obverse scan for you in a minute

Thanks, naxos. I'm wondering how many "4" marks have been seen on a round-wire pin setup and whether there's anything else "odd" about such examples?

It occurs to me that the tooling on the setup of that silver 4-marked S&L Faherabzeichen looks more like this zinc L. Christian Lauer Reiterabzeichen than it does like S&L's bronze Reiterabzeichen (both shown below). Maybe I'm just getting hung up on bends that occurred in the wire afterwards during wear?

Could you also show another S&L silver Fahrerabzeichen with this reverse setup for comparison?

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

**naxos** · 09-16-2011, 02:32 PM

Sorry Norm, I don't have another S&L silver Fahrerabzeichen.
I have seen another one that was owned by WAF member, perhaps someone else can post theirs.

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Dragging up this interesting post by naxos which I've just noticed.

That looks like an S&L "4" stamp in the pin, am I right? I've never before seen an S&L round-wire pin like this with a "4" mark. Is this found from time to time on Rider's badges or is this unique?

The next question, of course, is do we believe this badge to be wartime or post-war? The bend and the tooling marks on the upper end of the main pin don't match the usual S&L setup and isn't the round-wire catch wrong (should be flat-wire). Perhaps just a cast fake?

naxos, do you have a photo of the obverse as well?

Best regards,
---Norm

It does not match my wartime S&L setup. I have no doubts about the absoutely fine distinct die badge I own. Pin, catch and pin barrel different. Backside of mine lettering is nice and high relief and very distinct. Will photograph several today/tomorrow.

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 04:09 PM

Here are just the Reiters in all three grades. Something very special about the silver grade!

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reiter forum 1.jpg (94.0 KB, 225 views)

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 04:12 PM

Can you spot on the silver grade what makes this one so awesome?

Attached Files

reiter silver forum.jpg (96.3 KB, 226 views)

**Norm F** · 09-16-2011, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

It does not match my wartime S&L setup. I have no doubts about the absoutely fine distinct die badge I own. Pin, catch and pin barrel different. Backside of mine lettering is nice and high relief and very distinct. Will photograph several today/tomorrow.

Thanks Brian, I look forward to it.

Originally posted by naxos View Post

...
The "4" strike on the pin I have only seen on S&L silver grade badges. On bronze grade badges have never encounterd the "4" strike.

Hardy, just occurred to me, the background of those photos makes me a bit nervous. These photos weren't by chance from Staegemeir's site were they?

Attached Files

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 04:20 PM

I've looked for the silver grade to this badge but like used tooth brushes these badges have little resale value and I'm drawn to them but not to the extent I'll pay market +++.

Attached Files

hordrawn forum 1.jpg (138.7 KB, 226 views)

**Norm F** · 09-16-2011, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Can you spot on the silver grade what makes this one so awesome?

Hi Brian,

I see your Lauer badge has an actual silver stamp "990" in it. Very nice (although still hoping for a view of a silver grade zinc S&L for comparison

)

Best regards,
---Norm

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 04:22 PM

Now, back to the S&L badge posted slightly above... Look at the reverse of my gold grade S&L and compare the details on mine to the lack of details on the one above. Pin, barrel, and catch all different. Crisp clean raised lettering.

Attached Files

hordrawn forum 2.jpg (109.3 KB, 225 views)

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Hi Brian,

I see your Lauer badge has an actual silver stamp "990" in it. Very nice (although still hoping for a view of a silver grade zinc S&L for comparison

)

Best regards,
---Norm

You're quick Norm. Isn't that awesome.

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 04:31 PM

S&L Zink reverse. Proper pin, catch, barrel, and high raised distinct lettering.

Attached Files

s and l zink.jpg (95.9 KB, 225 views)

**Norm F** · 09-16-2011, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Brian S View Post

Now, back to the S&L badge posted slightly above... Look at the reverse of my gold grade S&L and compare the details on mine to the lack of details on the one above. Pin, barrel, and catch all different. Crisp clean raised lettering.

Hi Brian,

I have to say, I'm a bit concerned about this one. If I saw that setup on a combat badge, I'd have said that's classic for S&L post-war tombak production. The hinge/pin combo is typical of their '57 production. I don't doubt it's an original S&L, but the time of production is what I'm talking about here, since it's clear now S&L carried on happily in the post-war period in the same manner as Souval - first with leftover parts and later with post-war produced parts.

Check out Tom's thread on the "S&L post-war scrape".

Best regards,
---Norm

Attached Files

hordrawn forum 2.jpg (109.3 KB, 225 views)

**naxos** · 09-16-2011, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Thanks Brian, I look forward to it.

Hardy, just occurred to me, the background of those photos makes me a bit nervous. These photos weren't by chance from Staegemeir's site were they?

No Norm, I don't believe so.

**naxos** · 09-16-2011, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Norm F View Post

Hi Brian,

I have to say, I'm a bit concerned about this one. If I saw that setup on a combat badge, I'd have said that's classic for S&L post-war tombak production. The hinge/pin combo is typical of their '57 production. I don't doubt it's an original S&L, but the time of production is what I'm talking about here, since it's clear now S&L carried on happily in the post-war period in the same manner as Souval - first with leftover parts and later with post-war produced parts.

Check out Tom's thread on the "S&L post-war scrape".

Best regards,
---Norm

I believe S&L made only zinc Reiter- and Fahrerabzeichen during the war. In my opinion the tombac S&L with "R" are post-war

**Brian S** · 09-16-2011, 05:37 PM

You are entitled to your opinion. Why you think that fine tombak pieces and high grade silver pieces were struck by others but S&L minted only zink is really a theory I can't get behind. But you're entitled. It's just a poor man's opinion, mine.

I'm well aware of S&L's postwar production but seriously doubt there was demand postwar for "R" type badges. Maybe Dietrich can point us to a list of postwar items as he did before for crosses and other awards and show the list included Reiter related badges.

Look at Dietrich's book on Knight's Crosses around p.375 and look at his lists of items.

Barrel attachments by definition will be different for zink badges versus tombak. Suggesting S&L made no wartime tomak Reiter related badges is IMHO absurd.

And to my eye it's not the tear drop mark but the dimple. Subtle but significant.

Dietrich just confirmed by email none of the lists included Reiter/Horse related badges in postwar S&L sales items. Doesn't preclude it, but they were not on the dealer lists or letters he's copies of.

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